The Relationship Between Intelligence and Anxiety | Hacker News Reader

The Relationship Between Intelligence and Anxiety

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

137 pointsamelius46 comments

We have demonstrated in a previous study that a high degree of worry in patients with generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) correlates positively with intelligence and that a low degree of worry in healthy subjects correlates positively with intelligence.

Much simpler alternate hypothesis: Generalized Anxiety Disorder is more accurately diagnosed in intelligent people.

(As for the study, the small sample size etc makes it an object lesson into how to create a study that won't replicate. Why is this on HN?)

Your alternate hypothesis is interesting. I wonder if that was considered. As far as why it's on HN though, presumably because many of us find it interesting, despite its drawbacks. (Or even because of them, since it encourages interesting comments like the first part of yours!)

Given the mean IQ of the participants with GAD was 119 in this study this hypothesis has certainly not been excluded.

It is like 99% of these studies - of limited applicability and almost certainly unable to be replicated in a larger study. There is a name for these sort of studies, but I am trying to be charitable.

Without reading the study I can't be sure, but it should be relatively easy to screen for that bias by factoring into their analysis the ratio of patients presenting with an awareness of their anxiety as distinct from the patients who presented with other reasons than anxiety since this kind of information should be available and makes sense to consider.

This study does not have the numbers of participants to do this analysis. Even if it did you can’t rule out that to be diagnosed with GAD you need a certain IQ or that the higher your IQ the more likely the diagnosis given the underlying condition.

There is an interesting reversal of this effect with schizophrenia. In order to be diagnosed with schizophrenia you have to have social or occupational dysfunction [1] (effectively not be able to care for yourself). You can be completely delusional, but if you are able to care for yourself then you are not considered to have schizophrenia. People with a high IQ you are often able to look after themselves while delusional much more effectively than people with a low IQ and so not meet the DSM criteria. The underlying biology maybe identical, but the diagnosis is different.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis_of_schizophrenia

If you accept that hypothesis then you'd also necessarily have to accept the hypothesis that intelligent people are more likely to have been diagnosed with all sorts of mental disorders because the disorders are more accurately diagnosed in them.

But, the hypothesis that that GAD is more accurately diagnosed as intelligence increases doesn't require the expansion that all (or even a single other) mental disorder be more accurately diagnosed.

Perhaps it'd be better to say "you'd be opening yourself to the hypothesis", which would be more likely to be true. I still don't think the OP's alternative hypothesis is broad enough to support this claim, but it'd be less false on its face.

I have a feeling people with high anxiety retreat from overtly social situations and into intellectual matters by reading, doing well in school, and so forth. There's already some studies linking sensitivity to stimulation with introversion.

As somebody whom gets anxiety, my assumption was always that more intelligent people aren't ignorant to the likes of science and such and therefore realize the gravity of possibly scenarios.

Few examples....I got a decent gash on my leg a few months ago. I was going out kayaking with some friends so I shaved my leg around the cut and wrapped it up nice and good with a duct tape bandage and water proof tape over that. I am not about to chance getting a flesh eating bacteria or something weird like that. Practically costs nothing to take a precaution. Another example, wearing a condom, even if you're in a relationship with the same person and you've both been tested. What if birth control doesn't work? What if she had unprotected sex with someone else? Not that I don't trust her, I do, but what if? I also get extreme FOMO when choosing what backend language to learn (still haven't chosen after a few months). Sometimes when looking at the documents for new libraries it takes me a few days to actually sit down to look at them from the anxiety that maybe I'll be too stupid to understand the docs. This leads to me sitting at the computer staring at the docs but not actually reading because my mind is just in one huge clusterfuck looping around these thoughts and thinking what if I follow the instructions wrong? I'll have to start over and would have wasted time. Finally when I actually start typing and doing stuff I have no problem. While I know I just have to learn how to use these things once and I'll know it 'forever' and that just sitting there is actually wasting more time than I would be if I had to stay over 50 times, I just can't help it.

There's a lot of value to just jumping into things. Especially learning new things where there's no risk other than learning something that you might not end up using- but will certainly help you down the road regardless of its actual utility. There has to be a peak for those who may be naturally higher intelligence, and being surpassed by those with lower natural intelligence who have a broad basis to draw on down the road from all the learning experiences they jumped on.

As for the physical stuff, I can't say you're wrong to think this way but reading that gave me a mental image of a boy in a bubble, wearing a body condom.

If not you should find rational reasons not to visit a therapist

"Fuck it dawg, life's a risk."

Assuming you like their music too :)

Some intelligent people know when it's worth to take risks and don't bother themselves about consequences that will probably never happen.

I have a different outlook as someone whose life was crippled by anxiety.

Many times my opinion on varying matters is asked I am met with some derogatory comments about how I only see the grim aspects of a given situation.

When in truth, from my point of view at least, I simply seem to see a large tree of possibilities of things that can go wrong or right. For instance, regarding the positive and negative sides of buying a house, if I point out the price, the distance to school/work and the condition of the roof it seems like people blame me for pointing it out... like I was personally and willingly trying to destroy the happiness the best case scenario would bring if they bought it on the spot. And it rarely fails: my objections are only met with more positive aspects in the form of "but this is okay because...". It's like most people don't want to see the whole picture, only the positive elements of the whole picture.

Now I try to grow up and dodge those situations or let requests for advices pass by.

But it's not about « intelligence », it's more about seeing the whole picture, getting asked about it and being blamed for detailing the obvious (I know next to nothing of carpentry or the real estate market beyond the obvious: "don't buy a house on fire").

Lol I've been there, and being pinned as the Debbie downer or being called paranoid because of it

"We have demonstrated in a previous study that a high degree of worry in patients with generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) correlates positively with intelligence and that a low degree of worry in healthy subjects correlates positively with intelligence."

Woot! As a happy person who doesn't worrry much I was pleasantly surprised to find out I'm not necessarily and idiot.

So if I'm having high levels of anxiety and feel dumber every day, it means I'm not having a generalized anxiety disorder?

You could be experiencing imposter syndrome.

From the first sentence of the conclusion:

> It should be noted, however, that... the mean IQ for the GAD group was elevated in comparison to the control group (a mean of ∼119 versus a mean of ∼109). Further, the IQ means for both the GAD group and the control group were significantly higher than the average IQ of the general population (∼100). Results should thus be interpreted with the consideration that the study sample is non-representative of the general population.

I've always wondered about this when talking to friends of mine who are psychology grad students about the studies they work on. Since most of them rely upon volunteers attracted via mechanisms like flyers put up on a university campus or the raffle of a free iPad in a college town, aren't these types of volunteer-based studies going to tell you a lot about college kids and (potentially) very little about the general population?

Yep - college undergrads are the white mice of psychology, just not as cute (usually).

Exactly. And lots of studies (just hearsay) where smashed when trying to replicate them with a sample that mimics the general population.

Lots of psychology studies have failed to be replicated even in college students. The problem generally is not the population being studied, but the small numbers and a lack of control for bias.

Yes.

I came to confirm that as well :).

Students lingering in the hall is the template of psych. models.

Ugh, they went out of their way to create a mobile interface which breaks vertical scrolling (you have to hit the "next" button to see the next (non-scrollable) page.

Guys, seriously, stop breaking the mobile web by "improving" it :(

I got downvoted for calling that out on one of their last articles. Side scrolling is absolutely non-intuitive and painfully limits ones ability to easily read an article on mobile. /ot

The article is interesting though in that it calls out with medical evidence a correlation I think of as relatively obvious. I've met some seriously smart people in the world with personality peculiarities that seem to stem from anxiety.

Side-scrolling is shit. There, I said it.

While the paginated mobile version is terrible, if you poke around they have PDF, "desktop" classic style and others. PDF and the classic view are actually not bad at all. Their mobile is an abomination just like the rest of the "mobile" web but these alternatives on that link.. I'll give them credit.

Did you try swiping left/right? That definitely works for me.

Unlike you, I actually found this refreshingly nice, especially considering it's a government site. Usually you get one broken experience, this has lots of options which all work well (albeit some not fitting well for all styles of consumption, but still well implemented otherwise).

The data behind this study is shoddy at best. Missing patients, sample size of 30 reduced due to environmental factors. As well as assuming IQ is an accurate measurement of intelligence.

Would be interesting to look at education data against the same person's mental health data on a massive scale. Wouldn't happen unless people opted in to sharing.

If one is drunk, driving a car increases your chances of dying. Having a fast car will increase those chances too. :)

N = 44 and the authors are concluding two separate trends? (Positive correlation in patients with GAD and negative in patients without). Since each correlation only applies to the subset of people this is at best an N = 26 study. Seems like an interesting topic, but with a sample size so small I struggle to believe (or disbelieve) any of the conclusions.

I think we need more data than that before we draw any conclusions. That's a rather small sample size.

This reminds me of an excerpt from The Sports Gene about Met and Val alleles in the COMT[1] gene, though:

"Cognitive testing and brain imaging studies have found that subjects with two Met versions - both animals and humans - tend to do better and require less metabolic effort for cognitive and memory tasks, but that they are also more prone to anxiety and more sensitive to pain. Conversely, Val/Val carriers seem to do slightly worse on cognitive tests that require rapid mental flexibility, but may be more resilient to stress and pain."

[1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22530780

In summary:

Positive correlation: (Anxiety, Low Choline), Intelligence

Positive correlation: (No Anxiety, Normal Choline), Intelligence

Does this mean that if I'm an intelligent worrier and take a choline supplement then I can possibly get some relief?

I noticed quite a change in mood when I started reintroducing foods with choline into my diet. Of course, some of those foods have some other nutrients that are harder to get. Eggs and beef were the main sources I targeted.

Obviously, overall diet, sleep, exercise, etc. etc. matters as well.

I really wouldn't read too much into MR spectroscopy studies.

MRS is an extremely blunt instrument and only serves to line peoples CVs with scientific sounding publications.

I can honestly say anxiety ruined my life. Yea, I had some fun here, and there, but anxiety really held me back.

I all stemmed from one huge panic attack on Christmas Eve. I remember coming home from my father's house. Normal Irish blue collar Christmas. We were all drinking. Not drunk--Irish don't get drunk--we can handle the booze--with the exception of our livers. We we just having a good time. I did have a cup of coffee before I drove home.

I got home, and went to the bathroom--looked into the mirror. I was thinking about the enevilibility of death. I thought about Christmas card my dad gave me. "Happy Christmas! Doctor, PhD. Masters, BS, etc." My father didn't approve of my education. He didn't feel anyone who was in school added to society. What's ironic is I kinda agreed with him, and validated his views--just to please the man. I use to tell him--all this school--all this money, and I look back and maybe I had eight amazing classes in college. (I don't know why my father didn't want me to go to school, he didn't pay a dime. I sometimes thing he wanted me to be just as happy, and fulfilled as he was in life, but no more?

I thought about a student who died of a cerebral hemorrhage. I thought about the fragility of the human anatomy system. I thought "What makes me different than the guy who popped a vessel riding his bike, with his cute wife?" (Edipal issues too?)

I picked at a pimple? I noticed my hair did look poofy. My sister was big on hair conditioners.

It was around 12:30 p.m.--and click. I thought I heard an artery in my head explode.

The room started to change dimensions. The room became larger--then smaller. The wall paper started to move slightly. My body went hay wire. I was a nervous wreck. An fews hour of hell went by, and I somehow got to sleep.

The next morning I woke up, and at least I was still on this earth. I walked down the hallway, and the nervous started up.

The nervousness went on for years, and years. I got to a point where I could leave the house, or deal with humans, without two 187ml splits of wine.

I did a year's worth of therapy. I found a therapist out of the Yellow Pages. I paid for the therapy with the rest of my student loans, and some nefarious activities.

The therapy did nothing other than squash the thought, "Maybe I should have seen an Therapist?" The therapy actually did some damage--I believe, but you should probally find out for yourselfs? (Oh, yea most doctors won't give you any drug without you wasting time with a therapist. That is if your not connected, or come from a wealthy family. It's a hellish system.)

I finally found a Psychiatrist whom would give me more that a weeks worth of Valium. He was my fifth Psychiatrist. He gave me Klonopin. It really helped, but I'm still on it 20 years later. I believe it's a good drug though. It has a long half life, and is not expensive anymore.

While the drug helped--it only helped a bit.

I still needed to drink in order to feel straight.

Over the years I fried all the Hetro/tri-cyclic drugs; like Prozac, and Paxil, elevil, etc. and at least ten others.

None of them worked in the slightest! They were all a waste of money, and time for myself. I cried when I read that study on the history of Proxac, and what Eli-Lilly did to deceive. Literally cried!

I should probally back up a bit. Right before the major panic attack, I was in a graduate school. I had problems with the school, and some students. I didn't feel they were being honest with themself's, or the science we were learning. The school got their money, the students would all have good paying jobs in a few years. It bothered me that no one was looking for the truth, or efficacy of what they were learning. I learned then, and it still hold true; When it comes to fininancial outlay, financial future--students and teachers go into denial. They stop looking for the Truth. It's nothing new, it's called denial. I didn't have that denial at the time. I was too focused on fining the truth, and accepting its consequences. My personal life was not great, but I was still seeing people. I wasen't happy, but who's happy in their 20's? I did have few warning signs of potential problems ahead. I felt I might have a brain tumor. (I had this weird head pain, since I left high school. Looking back, it was all psychosomatic.) I further felt like I could prevent a serious disease by being extremely healthy. I once got my total cholesterol down 120.

Back to hell, while the drug helped--it only helped a bit.

I still needed to drink in order to feel straight.

I don't have anything to say about anxiety. I know I have never met one other person who had my exact symptomology. I've met some who were worse, and some who just had one panic attack. When they do these studies; I wish they would find people who really have these afflictions--I know it's hard, and not financially feasible.

Anxiety, in some people, can ruin lives. I am close to being homeless because of it. No--I'm not bad enough for disability. That's the rub. In some situations I'm the best guy in the room. Other days, I can't walk into the room. Mental illness is still hidden malady. How is some politician suspose to understand what these malidities feel like when even health professionals really don't seem to get it?

If you are suffering from anxiety, try to only drink to curb anxiety attacks. Two/three drinks will usually stop an anxiety attack.

Don't become an alcoholic. Save that liver for rough patches ahead. You won't be able to drink like your buddies. They don't need to drink to feel sane. The anxiety symptoms will lessen with age. You life might be a shambles, but the feelings just lesson. Hang in there. I sometimes feel life is just not worth living, but something always brings me around. Not necessarily something--just brain chemistry seems to come into start playing--nice, nice? Who knows--sometimes I think they are focusing on the wrong organ. Maybe the adrenal glands? Who knows?

The only benefit I can see of my psychological faults is I truly care about anyone who's in pain. Before the breakdown, I didn't truely understand why certain people lived the way they do. I didn't understand why he wasn't working. Why isn't he making money. Making money is pretty easy for guys like me? What's wrong with them? Or they lazy? Do that have delusions of grandure?

I now don't judge people like I use too. To be honest I was never that critical of people. I'm just more understanding now. That whole, "Walk a mile in a man's shoes." I truly think about that, if I about to cast judgment.

Good luck! Keep an eye out for that friend/family member who's in hell. Try to be supportive?

Merry Christmas!

I think you should consider trying to find a different specialist. Mental health conditions are notorious for requiring highly individualized treatment. From what you've said it also sounds a bit like you might have a panic disorder and not just anxiety.

I struggled with anxiety for several years (only realising in retrospect that it was anxiety that was the principle source of my ills.)

I benefitted from an excellent, no BS therapist as well as finding the right medication. It took me several tries to find a medication that made a noticeable difference (the first three never helped and actually in some ways made the situation worse. It also took several tries to find a therapist with an approach that worked for me.

Don't give up. Find the right therapist and get help in finding the right medication (this could take a whilst and you may go through several dead ends before finding a solution but keep at it - its worth it.)

Good luck and all the best. Peace to you over Christmas.

Also, some other pointers: - Meds take a long time to work. Don't give up on a drug until you've tried it for at least several weeks. - Same for therapy, don't leave a therapist because you have one bad session or they say something that irks you.

Some other things that helped me: - Minimise negative influences in your life (this includes family members). End toxic relationships. Only be with people that lift you up. - Find fulfilling work. Even if it means taking a pay cut. Doing work you don't enjoy with people you don't like will slowly eat away at your soul. - Stop drinking coffee and minimise caffeine intake. - Get plenty of sleep. Sleep deprivation only makes things worse. - Minimise alcohol intake and avoid recreational drug intake. - Avoid Benzodiazepines - like alcohol they may help in the short term but will hit you hard on the rebound in the long term.

You could give this a try: [1]

But make sure you discuss with your GP.

[1] http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/completely-...

I have only read the text diagonally while looking for some keywords, but my 2 cents: in many cases, when a neuroscience study claims to be able to "predict" something, they mean "var X and var Y show a strong correlation". Actual predictive power is not checked unless there is a real test set that is left out of the training phase and all that (cross-validation, etc).

When this article claims:

> When data from GAD patients and healthy controls were combined, relatively low CHO predicted both relatively higher IQ and worry scores.

... it is actually saying that CHO is inversely correlated with higher IQ and worry scores.

(Unless, again, as noted above, they are cross-validating in a way that was not obvious to me when I checked for it.)

Ignorance is bliss!

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