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Comment by cubano | Hacker News Reader

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes...

If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting".

If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist".

I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in such a vastly different, sexually charged environment (I'm watching it happen with my 13 year old daughter right now) as guys do, it is, of course, impossible for me to understand all the nuance.

Just my anecdotal thoughts on it...btw it is good to see this woman make an attempt to address the issue.

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What you say about 'if the female is attracted' is incredibly wrong, and I can speak from personal experience (as a guy). It's NOT about attraction, its about being, well, creepy. I didn't find this out till I started hitting the gym more and gay men started hitting on me more often (I'm straight and happily married for the record, so it's not about me being attracted or not). Here's what I learned:

If the guy is direct and has a positive attitude I say no but I take it as a compliment. It's like a feather in my cap (someone thinks I look good!). If the guy is being weird and indirect about it that gets creepy (and sometimes a little scary). The difference is that the positive guy usually takes the hint if I'm not interested. If they don't take the hint they BECOME creepy. The creepy guy is either so indirect that there's no clear way to give a hint, or just refuses to take the hint at all.

As I said before, since I'm straight this isn't about whether I'm attracted to the person or not. It's about someone acting in a way that feels creepy or not. It's about whether boundaries are being crossed. Finally, I'll end by saying that you can be hit on by a good looking person in a creepy way, and flirted with by an ugly person in a very positive way. It's all about attitude.

You didn't actually cubano's point. You're straight so you weren't attracted to any of the guys who approached you. cubano was saying it would be different if you were approached by a woman you were interested in. Perhaps the indirectness would seem coy instead of creepy.

Then again, maybe not, but I'm not sure how to objectively measure this phenomenon. People are fickle and attractiveness is sort of a squishy concept. The confusion in this is the underpinning of certain subgenres of romantic comedy like Bridget Jones's Diary and Pride and Prejudice.

Besides, a lot of people are creepy when approaching members of the opposite sex because nobody cares to coach them on how to do it properly. And nobody cares to help them figure out the 'who's, 'where's, 'when's, and 'how's of approaching prospective partners.

You've got a point. I'm sure being physically attracted to someone enhances or diminishes the effect of their actual approach. Additionally, attractive people are more confident, and confident people tend to not behave in as many creepy behaviors.

That being said, the underlying theme of cubano's comment was blaming women for (shockingly) responding positively to flirty men who they find attractive, and responding negatively to flirty men who don't stop even after it's clear that the women just aren't into them. The subtext of cubano's comment was that it wasn't the guy's fault for being creepy, after all that was only because the woman wasn't attracted to him! He acted just the same! These guys think that you can evaluate the behavior independent of the context, which is of course ludicrous.

I think you're jumping to some conclusions there.

Most "creepy" men are socially awkward and can't do anything about it, or at least they haven't been able to do anything about it yet. To villainize them out of hand isn't helpful either. Some of them undoubtedly have social disorders, so coming down on them seems unfair as well. Maybe there are some people that are creepy on purpose, but I suspect that is a very small number of incidents.

People have a responsibility to learn how to respectfully approach potential partners, but the rules on that are vague and there's no authoritative resource on what they are. But there's absolutely a bottom line, that we should aspire to make sure everyone feels safe and respected.

But, on the flip side of the coin, people have some responsibility in learning how to learn how to reject someone clearly but respectfully. Walking to the other side of the room and talking to your friends about the creepy guy is literally the stuff of other peoples' nightmares.

I think we agree more than we disagree! I agree with you that a lot of them are simply awkward. I'm trying not to make them into villains, and I apologize for striking a somewhat harsh tone. I think that is deeply unfair as well!

Conversations like this are important because, as you say there's no authoritative resource on the topic. If we don't talk about how to act people will continue to walk around clueless.

That being said, if someone's boundaries are being crossed it incredibly unfair to say "he isn't doing it on purpose, he just doesn't know better". It still sucks to the person who's on the receiving end of that, they deserve fair treatment just as much. Unfortunately justice in that sort of situation is going to leave someone hurt, and it's better that the hurt person be the person breaking the social contract.

I have to say, I've met a number of socially awkward guys who flirt in a cute way, and a number of socially smooth guys who are super creepy. And some people are creepy on purpose -- negging, pushing boundaries, looking for the weak one in the herd or the woman who can't say no because of her own internal algorithms. They are often not socially awkward, either.

I think Captain Awkward and Dr. Nerdlove have done some excellent writing on how not to be creepy when approaching someone.

Going back to the point of the article, the poster says she hasn't had many bad experiences in tech and so she continues with confidence. She wants to show these good experiences to encourage others. This is a good idea. When it comes to rejecting people, for instance, women hear so many stories or have so many experiences of men taking rejection very badly that they often feel they must reject indirectly to preserve their comfort or safety. http://thoughtcatalog.com/christine-stockton/2014/12/bitches...

I get the sentiment of the thoughtcatalog link you posted, but aren't those exchanges either an extension of people taking advantage of either the relative anonymity provided by the internet/social media or private text conversations where no one else will likely ever read the messages?

I have never seen a guy get turned down by a woman in the real world and disparage her in such a way. Not at the bar, not anywhere else. The exchange is often over as quickly as it started. Any guy who responds to rejection in such a way and using such mediums of communication is spineless. I've come to see the terms "b---h" and "a--hole" in a dating context as words people use to describe others who won't give them the time of day.

At any rate, I think with dating today, people who are uninterested tend to just cut off all contact. It sucks to have somebody just ignore you, but they if they weren't an absolute "yes" to dating you or going on a date, then what's the point?

I have never seen a guy get turned down by a woman in the real world

You may not have, but it happens. I have read support threads where women talk about being punched in the face for rejecting a guy in a bar. I'm sure if you talk to a bouncer at any popular nightclub they'll give you loads of stories of women being assaulted by creepy dudes.

It is true that it is easiest to provide transcripts of written conversations.

How are you going to see such disparagement in the "real world" though? First, the women are all already using indirect rejection to head that off, or wearing fake rings or saying, "Sorry, my boyfriend wouldn't like that" whether a boyfriend exists or not, or giving out a fake phone number. Those are all standard tactics for a soft let-down designed to avoid conflict.

Second, how would you hear about it? Usually a guy who responds poorly doesn't flip a table, he just says, Well yeah you're ugly anyway, or something like that. Why would you hear that? Are you sitting so close that you'd hear the whole conversation? These are generally not loud conversations, and most women are shrinking in their seats trying to de-escalate and just make it/him go away. No one wants to cause a scene.

For an authoritative and peer-reviewed source (/s) check out the reddit accounts here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/20xdni/what_is_th... Most of these reactions are things a nearby guy wouldn't ever notice.

Walking to the other side of the room and talking to your friends about the creepy guy is literally the stuff of other peoples' nightmares.

Unfortunately, some people never leave high school.

I don't think that's what cubano was implying. Nobody would blame women for responding positively or negatively to attractive or unattractive men - that's just taste, and it's completely natural.

However, it's become acceptable and fashionable to shame unattractive men as "creepy" - that is unacceptable to me (unless the person is actually creepy, e.g. a stalker etc.), and women (and whoever else is doing it) are to blame.

Edit: We can compare being "creepy" with being "a slut". It's OK to not be attracted to women (or people) who are "sluts" - you're entitled to whatever taste or compatibility criteria you want in a partner. But it's definitely not OK to shame women for being sluts.

"You didn't actually cubano's point. You're straight so you weren't attracted to any of the guys who approached you. cubano was saying it would be different if you were approached by a woman you were interested in. Perhaps the indirectness would seem coy instead of creepy."

Maybe the women that cubano observed were not attracted to any of the guys that cubano saw approach them either? Maybe they weren't attracted to them because they were actually creepy?

I have never seen a woman treat a friendly guy who approached her as creepy just because the guy wasn't "attractive" to her, unless that guy was only being "friendly" in his own mind and actually acting very sleazy.

> If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting".

> If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist".

In my experience, the exact same thing is true with the sexes switched: behaviour which I find attractive in a woman I find attractive is awful in a woman I don't find attractive.

I think this is probably a universal constant: we all appreciate it when someone we'd like to get closer to gets closer to us, and we all are at the very best neutral when someone we don't wish to get closer to, moves closer in.

It's not even sexual: who hasn't experienced the phenomenon of the bore at a party who just. won't. go. away?

On the other other side of the coin, as I know myself to be physically unattractive and boring, if anyone approaches me at all, that's automatically suspicious behavior, whether I find their appearance to be pleasing or not. If an attractive person approaches me, that's a honeypot for sure. Or a crazy. Maybe so drunk that a trip to the hospital might be warranted. Perhaps they're soliciting donations for charity. Possibly someone triple-dog dared them to talk to me. I immediately wonder what the ulterior motive is.

That makes it easy to not be sexist. The probability of any sort of romantic relationship with any given stranger is effectively zero, therefore it doesn't matter what they are.

And I try not to inflict myself on others at parties. Or on the party venue. Or anywhere in public, really. If you think it's hard talking to an ugly bore, it's far worse being one. We can tell that you want us to go away. We're not oblivious to the repellent body language. We just have to ignore it sometimes, because otherwise we'd never get to talk to anybody.

Sorry for being creepy, or jerky, or whatever. From the lips of Lord Farquaad, we know that it's already rude enough being alive when no one wants you. So thanks for being polite enough to not just look disgusted and walk away when we start talking. Because that's a thing that actually happens.

I disagree. Most men if approached by an awkward unattractive woman at a bar will at least be polite and have a normal conversation even if they're not interested. Whereas women will often outright ignore or even act hostile towards an awkward unattractive man trying to strike a conversation.

Men are expected to treat women courteously, whereas women aren't held to the same standard. A woman can treat a man like a disposable garbage bag and it doesn't have the same stigma as a man doing the same to a woman.

Citation needed. Your assertion is completely baseless. Even in the event where it was in fact true, altering your behavior towards the person based on your expectation of what they might do based on statistics is the very mode of sexism.

> altering your behavior towards the person based on your expectation of what they might do based on statistics is the very mode of sexism

???

Can you unwrap that a bit...

> Citation needed. Your assertion is completely baseless.

If it was baseless, then I wouldn't be bringing it up.

I can't count how many times me or a friend has said "hi" to a girl at a bar/club only to be flat out ignored and even treated hostilely and told to "fuck off" (or something of that vein). On the other hand, I've never witnessed a female friend of mine being treated like that for saying hi to a stranger.

I realize that anecdotes are just anecdotes. But I'm sure you can find YouTube videos of what I'm talking about.

> A woman can treat a man like a disposable garbage bag

I always hear people bring this up and I've never actually seen it unless the guy is overly aggressive (i.e. grabbing her ass). And if the guy is awkward women treat him with pity, not hostility.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10764099

Most men if approached by an awkward unattractive woman

No, it's just that the distributions for attractiveness are different between women[0] and men[1]. Women rate 80% of guys as worse-looking than "medium attractiveness". Men, on the other hand, rate women on a much more normalized curve.

[0]. http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/your_looks_and_inbox/Male-Messagi...

[1]. http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/your_looks_and_inbox/Female-Messa...

Just a heads up about flirting. The same thing could be said the other way around. The fact alone that a guy is flirting is not the reason it might be considered creepy or jerkish. It's the fact that they do it anyway when the woman is _visibly_ uncomfortable / trying to be alone / not interested or worse, when they keep flirting even after hearing a solid no. If a woman did that, you'd say to the very least that she's annoying. It's called _unwanted_ attention for a reason.

> _visibly_ uncomfortable / trying to be alone / not interested or worse, when they keep flirting even after hearing a solid no.

I think this tends to be compounded by 2 things:

1) A lot of guys, especially engineer-types, just don't get the signals, even if they are obvious.

2) A lot of women still play "hard to get" and a lot of guys like that. It's a hard game for some people to play.

I absolutely agree with you though

I feel like I've seen similar things, but I would phrase it differently.

It seems like--on average, not as a a rule--women find men who are more socially adept to be more attractive. This is measured partly in how a man hits on a woman.

If a man doesn't quite meet the bar of "socially adept" or "smooth", he can be creepy. This is one type of not-smooth, with other types including awkward and clumsy. These are not mutually exclusive, nor are they the same.

The tragedy to me is that the awkward and clumsy guys are pitied--they don't know any better. The creepy guy tends to be looked upon with disdain, as if he should know better.

I'd say you're absolutely correct. I laugh when I see feminist friends of mine who complain about "creepy" guys approaching them at coffee shops and days later they'll talk about how they hate being single and want to meet someone.

Those are not mutually exclusive things though, presumably they want to be approached by non-creepy guys (ie ones they happen to like, by whatever measure).

I guess this is just how the human mating game goes. We try to make some things make sense intellectually even though there's probably deeper subconscious and chemical messaging going on.

It would be nice if they were a bit more honest and switched creepy/non-creepy with unattractive/attractive.

Humanity would be more nice if everyone would be more honest :)

Everyone has a bunch of biases they're more or (mostly) less aware of, thus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational

"Creepy" is shorthand, which most men are at a disadvantage in understanding on account of not having spent a lifetime analyzing men as potential mates. (And now you know why the "gay friend" trope exists: as a bridge between the worlds.) In this case, "creepy" probably has a lot to do with anyone dense enough to try a cold sell in a coffee shop being unlikely in the extreme to make a worthwhile partner even if humored.

It's creepy when it's someone undesirable.

I'll be honest I'm usually in a coffee shop to study and read and think to myself or with a friend. I'd be creeped out if a total stranger got in my space to flirt with me out of nowhere. Some people need to have time to mentally prepare for certain types of social interaction.

I'm the same way with you, but that's also why I don't go to coffee shops to study/think. I'm simplifying and assuming a lot here, but: Why would you go out to a place like that for "alone time"?

I kind of like the background noise for some reason. It wouldn't surprise me if our brains evolved to be most relaxedness and free from other worries when surrounded by other humans, making it a good setting for doing some studying or whatever.

I can see that. I personally prefer music, but I've definitely heard of people turning on the tv for "background chatter" when they live alone.

My point is though: By putting yourself in a public setting, you are more likely to be approached. I don't want to say "asking to be approached", but I'm not sure how else to articulate my thought |:)

I wouldn't be shocked if a stranger approached me in a coffee-shop. I would be if they approached me in my home!

Here's the thing, I shouldn't expect to be met with other people's rudeness. That's not my fault. They are the ones that are rude. The exact attitude you're displaying is exactly what you are struggling to avoid saying.

I'm not shocked if a stranger approaches me; I consider them unable to recognize the social situation and they are being rude. I also grew up in the city, where the socially polite thing to do in most public situations is to leave people alone.

I go to coffee shops because I like the laid back atmosphere of many of them. I also like the smell of coffee and people watching.

My experience is different. This meme gets repeated a lot on the internet, but it jars with the stories I hear from my friends.

Yes, someone not attractive is more likely to be considered creepy - but that's correlation, not causation. Being creepy is extremely unattractive!

An example, which is by no means an outlier: A friend of mine met a man. The man is very attractive, in the particular way that the woman in this story likes, and they had some key common interests. She was extremely attracted to him in short order.

Then he did something creepy. Bam, not attractive anymore. There was no immunity conferred by the other attractive qualities - being creepy was unattractive enough that he was no longer considered attractive.

It is a rather sad fact that many... "socially less capable" people can be a bit oblivious of how their actions seem to other people, and the dividing line between flirty and creepy. Without the necessary skills to tell the difference, it does appear that this distinction is arbitrary, or predicated on other variables (e.g. visual attractiveness).

I agree with this, this happened to me quite a few times

It's not a rule, just a general guideline. I don't think people are arguing that nothing an attractive person does can be construed as creepy; rather, some things that would be unacceptable as an unattractive person can be acceptable as an attractive one.

There seems to be a large divergence between women's spoken preferences and observed preferences. It's like my very sympathetic female friend who says she would date a short guy, while she never has. My sister says plenty of women like asian men, while she has only dated white men. Women roundly ridicule men's shirtless photos on dating sites, except OkCupid showed that these photos attract women very effectively: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-4-big-myths-of-profile.... Even Brene Brown discovered that while women spoke of their desire for a sensitive, vulnerable man, in reality they were actually repulsed by it: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-some-women-repulsed-by-male-vu.... I could go on. I think there's some toxic puritanism that makes women feel compelled to act as the "fairer," more virtuous and less carnal gender. But the data show that women want big, strong, virile men to lean on to this day.

Yes, interactions with other human beings have different personal (to the counterparty) and often social acceptability (as well as, often, moral and/or legal status) based on context, including, especially, whether they are welcome by the other person. The difference between rape and consensual sex is a fairly extreme, obvious, and readily recognizable example, but, while the intensity and severity varies, its common across pretty much the whole range of human interactions.

Failing to recognize this and act accordingly is the essence of objectification.

I agree. And any guy can be "creepy". It doesn't matter how attractive he might be to other females. It is just how the mating game works.

Men should learn not to pursue office relationships. They are almost always a bad idea. Don't shit where you eat.

> Men should learn not to pursue office relationships.

Of all the cases I know of office relationships (and I know a LOT) the man have been pursuing and being pursued roughly 50/50. I have not found observable differences in the ability of both sexes to be horny and able to get into a big mess in the workplace.

In other words, the difference between "creepy" and "adorable" exists entirely within the mind of the person receiving the attention.

I wonder if the perceived potential threat is also a factor. I'm male and on the tall-ish side so it would take a lot for someone to approach me and for me to perceive them as "creepy" instead of maybe just awkward or odd.

Yes, this is what happens. Also it seems to me that many women have have the habit of interpreting a larger than realistic percentage of interactions as 'flirtatious'.

In other words some of the interactions that were deemed as 'flirty' or even 'creepy-flirty' would be seen as perfectly normal and gender neutral if they were presented as IRC transcripts in a scientific study.. I suspect they would not be picked out as 'flirty' by the study group who was tailing the logs.

> If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting".

This is NOT a female thing but a human thing where the perceptions of your interlocutor affect or cloud considerably your interpretation of his/her talk. So, when a word is said that under normal circumstances would be interpreted as neutral or good, the other party of the conversation could interpret it based on a lot of factors such as mood, feelings, prejudices, subconscious content etc and all of this complicates the communication process.

my personal belief is that the vast majority of these horror stories are simply the behavior of the huge number of socially awkward and unattractive men in our industry. they go through life pretty much offending everyone, until they learn social skills and mature a bit.

i've been on the receiving end of it because of my ethnic background.

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