Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen? | Hacker News Reader

Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

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60 pointsDoubleguitars60 comments

It's not that they couldn't if they wanted to; they could. But the history of domestic demand has been for cheap pens --the BICs/Papermates of the world. Their history of consumer products has been very utilitarian from pens to the mao jackets and the "iron furnace in every yard"[1] program to bootstrap industrialization onto a country where it arrived late.

So, the opportunity arrived where they had plenty of available labor and mature foreign economies which were diverging away from labor intensive low value added industries and in need of cheaper labor elsewhere and China availed itself in order to grow away from subsistence farming.

So, in that context the rise of the ubiquitous plastic pen is no surprise. No reason to deride it (and all it represents, from Christmas kitsch to joss money); it's what's got them to where they are and allows them to raise the question.

Now, it seems, they too are nearing an inflection point where more value added industries, industries which manufacture more value added products are needed in order to grow the internal consumer market and economy. The new consumerists, as it were.

I think the officials very well know this but felt the need to embarrass the industries which got them to the position where they can ask this question.

But Kai just avoids this angle and instead focuses on the "gotcha" sensationalism the PRC officials lobbed the media.

[1]http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/greatleap.htm

I think Mr. Li would consider Bic a good pen. "crappy pen(s) ... leak ink".

There are lot of unbranded pens in the market that stop working even before the ink inside them are used up. On the other hand, Bic has better pens because they cannot afford to disappoint customers.

China faces a branding problem, but most markets are saturated and cannot accommodate another brand.

Right, but most Chinese pens work like bics. Most don't explode ink in your pockets.

After the reconstruction of WWII Japan too had a branding issue. Before wwi the US had a branding issue. We all have to start somewhere and work our ways up.

I believe the PRC spokesperson just wanted to embarrass industry in general to get them to think about improvement and innovation --which is good and well, but I don't think its couth to bite the hand that fed you. It seemed a bit ungrateful.

They don't, and this is the problem. They aren't talking designer.

> Now, it seems, they too are nearing an inflection point where more value added industries, industries which manufacture more value added products are needed in order to grow the internal consumer market and economy. The new consumerists, as it were.

Would that be the middle income trap? With a median age that's close to Japan's in the 90s, it's a worry.

I think the key point that he's missing is that the chinese manufacturers are now manufacturing to the market's demand, and this is why China is growing rich. In the old system, the state may have ordered the (state owned) pen manufacturer to make a top-quality pen. The manufacturer would have done its best to comply, but ultimately, would have made a product that nobody wanted. In the new system, the administration at the pen factory can look at the data on what sells, and produce that to provide maximum profit to the company and maximum utility to consumers within the constraints of the factory's capabilities -- in this case, that means cheap, crappy pens. Importantly, these pens sell well, turn a profit for the factory, and provide the income needed to feed, cloth, and house all of its workers.

It's hard to believe that in a market with a billion consumers there is not enough demand for slightly higher goods.

But product quality is not just about the ball of the pen. Product quality is about the whole product and its place in the environment: labor conditions, energy production/use, material use, waste treatment, usability, precision, etc.

There probably is. But that market is probably sufficiently satiated with foreign pens, and not large enough to warrant domestic production.

It's hard to believe that in a market with a billion consumers there is not enough demand for slightly higher goods.

People who want and can afford higher quality goods, can probably also afford imported goods and the higher status they give.

Did you even listen to the program? They say exactly that

Ballpoint pens and erasers in the USA also felt rough to me, a Japanese. I don't know about the other 2 countries mentioned in the article (Germany and Switzerland), but maybe its the countries culture? Previously posted story of Hagoromo chalk is another example of Japanese high quality stationery .

My favourite mechanical pencil is the Pentel Side FX, which is apparently Japanese as well.

I use the Uni Jetstream 3 Color Ballpoint Multi Pen - 0.7 mm. I bought several with different case colors.

When in Tokyo I love that department stores have whole floors for pens and papers (and stickers and ribbons and gift wrapping and note books..). I miss this culture in Germany.

I'm going to a bit culturally insensitive, but I've been living in China for the past 2 months and I'm convinced they have a huge cultural barrier that makes them absolutely incapable of creating high quality goods.

I was told there is even a Chinese saying that amounts to "the average and not more"

You can even see this in San Francisco. Go to a chinese restaurant on Clement. The food will be amazing, but the windows look like they haven't been washed in years.

One of my friends here is an architect and she told me that her work crews always say she's OCD. When I actually saw one of her projects I was horrified. It's like big-picture okay, but all the details are wrong. Things are misaligned, poured concrete and splashed some on the white wall? who cares! It's just a smudge, no one will notice.

My friend who coordinates manufacturing here says the only way to get what you want is to constantly fly in for inspections and yell at manufacturers till you get what you want (and yes, if you don't yell people don't think you're being very serious)

While I've spent a bit of time in Japan too, (and I think the cultures are actually a lot closer than most people appreciate) - when it comes to quality it's a different planet

There are definitely places where China over achieves, and food is one of them. Also, while the architects might have OCD, the migrant construction workers making 10 Kuai an hour do not...which probably drives the architect to tears. My wife is a UX designer who has the same problem with low end developers.

The quality is there, but it can only go as far as the weakest link.

Ehhh, I don't buy it's simple a wage/motivation issue

You know cheap immigrant labor in the US also makes squat and they don't do generally do a shabby job. The issue is that no one is held to a high standard here. In the US if you do a sloppy job you'll get fired and they'll find someone who can do it better for the same horrible wage. Here "average" work is expected an no one really seems to mind (as long as "it gets the job done" so to speak), and if you expect more then you're a mean boss or OCD or whatever.

The food is good, why do you care about the windows? The pen clicks and put ink on paper, what more do you need?

Immigrant labor in the states isn't paid 10 Kuai an hour, and the American government isn't so worried about a peasant uprising that they would want to keep all the low skilled labor particularly busy. To the CCP, however, the construction industry is just a big jobs program for farmers who can't find enough work in the country side, hence the heavy use of concrete (easy to work with) and overbuilt buildings that feel dated just after a few years.

Believe me, people care, but the emphasis on low wages and work that just passes a low bar drives them crazy. I have to listen about my wife complain about this every night. I thankfully work for an American company but even then, things like a reactive approach to facilities maintnence drive me bonkers. It is simply about wages. If you go to Singapore, or Taiwan, or Hong Kong, you'll see similar cultures with much better results.

Well the first part is very true and the fact that the gov't doesn't really care about quality (just as long as people are working) probably fuels the culture of mediocrity, but this really doesn't apply to the private sector where in a different cultural climate the employers would always demand excellence. I mean at the end of the day it's sorta understandable b/c you just have to not be a ton worse than your competitors - and think of the savings!

I'm sure it's very different from Singapore/Taiwan/HK (though judging by the lack of attention to detail by immigrants in San Francisco I'll wait to see for myself), but this is a country of peasants/farmers run by peasants and farmers. It's going to take a very very long time for the culture to change - I'm talking several generations - b/c it's the culture of the "weakest-link". I guess their only blessing is that they have these other places to learn from.

Reminded me of the difference in airplane refueling.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2007/11/-quot-...

I put it to you that pens are intrinsically difficult for quality of production systems. Their nature (portable, lose-able, lend-able, steal-able) calls out for cheapness and disposability. Their size and ergonomics call out for precision manufacturing, but the materials must be cheap and plentiful. The measure of a good pen is often its durability, which is difficult to test for in production. The purchasing chain is incentivised for cost not quality - most pens are not bought by their users.

I think this is an almost unbeatable combination - I think we'll be shaking and scribbling cheap giveaway ballpoints for the forseeable future. Even if you buy good pens you'll probably be put in this situation in daily life from time to time, unless you're VERY careful about carrying a good pen everywhere and never lending it out.

The good news is that they can be used as a kind of bellweather. When cheap pens are good pens, you'll know a culture of quality has been arrived at in manufacturing systems for basic products.

I buy my pens from Muji, they are made in China and Thailand, mainly, and they tend to be very good quality (Muji charges at least 8 kuai for a pen, often 20 or 30 kuai). It is simply a matter of you get what you pay for (i.e. 便宜没好货，好货不便宜).

Ha! In Japanese "Muji" ('no mark', literally 'no character') is short for "Mujirushi Ryohin" ('unbranded goods').

It's odd that someone would take this on as a brand name. And makes me have to ask: Are you sure that this is a brand name? (It may well be - I just don't know of it)

So, at the high-end, these are about the same price as a Uniball Vision Roller or the like (which are made by Mitsubishi Pencil, if I recall correctly. Who may, in turn, very well have outsourced the manufacture to China - I don't know).

Your point is that China can make a good pen if someone pays for it? According to the story, that appears to be the case - but the equipment to manufacture said pen core must be made by the Swiss which leaks the money/profits to yet more money-grubbing foreigners. It just takes time to assemble the complete set of high-end manufacturing tooling. By the time the Chinese have done so, I can hope that our labor prices will be more equalized, but I'm guessing that this will not be the case...

ultimate irony is that Muji products end up being super recognisable (is this really irony? Well, kind of funny), because they use the same sort of material and design for everything.

Muji is a well known department store in Japan. The etymology of their brand is as you say. It goes back to the end of the bubble and a sense that consumers are weary of excessive branding. The solution: another new brand called "no brand".

Muji is essentially Japanese Ikea.

http://www.muji.com/us/

I buy them at the store called Muji, I didn't use it as a brand name. I'm not sure how they outsource production, but I wouldn't be surprised if the factories are running German or Swiss machines to do it. Or it could be only final assembly happens in China while the cores are made in Europe, but I doubt they would go through that much trouble. China's problem has always been machines and factory tooling, which is still dominated by Germany even if they are primarily used in China.

Other things to buy at Muji: towels, sheets, and spoons...it definitely beats ikea in quality.

As a Japanese, I recognize it as a brand. Bit snobbish naming I admit.

I second that - they have the best pens of any I have tried. Lovely notebooks and other stationary too. The curious thing is that they are probably mostly produced in China but if you buy them in China they are twice the price compared to Japan.

The markup isn't that bad. An 80 yen pen is about 10 or so Kuai, which puts the price at about 2X, though the yen has been quite weak lately.

Sorry. I am wrong - they are made in Japan.

It usually says on the sticker, which I don't take off. The pens I have right now are from Thailand and China, the Japanese price is also printed on them.

Not sure about ballpoint pens, but I bought a fine Montblanc Starwalker fountain pen clone* for $3, including international delivery from China.

*BAOER 79 Starwalker http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/Baoer-79-Black-Crystal-Ca...

I personally use Uniball Vision fine pens when I can but its convenient to have a stash of cheap pens lying around that I can take anywhere and possibly dispose of while not worrying about losing a pen that cost several dollars. I say keep making the cheap pens, and keep making them better.

What's the article did not talk about is Gree, the air conditioner company, actually had a robotics and precision machinery division since 2012 and they have just unveiled its first products including several industrial robots, a 3 axis CNC machine and a 5 axis CNC machine during a trade show in August of 2015.

She probably saw this as marketing opportunity to upset existing player in the field. Come to think of it, the ability to make a cheap precision ballpoint could also to translated to ball bearings, and that has a market orders of magnitudes bigger than ballpoint pens.

I'm kind of suspicious that according to the article the same factory is making 'bad' pens for China and 'good' pens for export.

I'm no expert on process improvements, but it would generally seem that once the cost to create the good pens has been spent, it would be relatively cheap to apply them to both product lines.

Which suggests either they intentionally use cheaper parts (cheaper ink?) on one line, or they have a sophisticated binning system and can identify the borderline pens and remove them from the flow going to export and instead send them to the less demanding domestic market.

The example in the article is that export pens get twice as much QA time (two test clicks instead of one test click) which involves twice the QA labour cost as for domestic-market pens. Same components, different process.

More generally I've had products manufactured in China for sale in Australia, and they certainly had more expensive parts than products assembled on the same line for sale into China. Never in a million years would the domestic units have passed certification for sale in Australia. So you just keep slotting in more expensive, higher-spec parts until the unit's safe and saleable.

As I said, I'm no expert, but an extra click in the QA process doesn't seem to account for domestic pens being of famously bad quality.

They're coming off the same production line, so if an unusual amount of pens were failing after the second click, then either they bin lots of pens intended for export and allow lots of broken pens to ship domestically, or they fix the problem on the line, and both sets of pens get better as a result.

Their sophisticated binning is clicking the pens to make sure they work. Export markets get an extra click.

Presumably some factories don't do any testing or binning and just let the defects through (for the domestic product).

This is a great insight into labour costs in China for manufacturing at these kind of scales: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4364

>> Next, it was the machine tool CEO’s turn. “There are two things that only Chinese people can make,” explained Guan Xiyou, CEO of Shenyang Machine Tool Group, “The first is fireworks. The second? Folding fans. Foreigners still can’t make a good folding fan."<<

I'd add the humble wooden handled iron/steel wok to the list. The local Chinese shops have them for about £6 to £7. Look after one (wash promptly, oil lightly when storing) and it lasts decades.

But I take the point about these being low cost items.

I doubt you've used them for decades but yeah, they last long for £6. Usually the handle will break though (I've gone through 3 of them in the last decade although they're quite sturdy). The wok itself is still perfect (but then again, for £10 at most I can get a new one, and I can't be bothered with fixing the handle.

OK you are right, 12 years and counting (bought one when I moved in here). Perhaps we are less emphatic than you in our jiggling of the stir frying veg?

For some reason imagined folding fan as some compact mechanically fan that could be compacted. Then I googled it and turns out it's just a paper fan. Very disappointed

The ones commonly used in Japan when I lived there a 25-or-so years ago, weren't paper. There were many kinds, styles, qualities and makes at the (say, Seibu) department store. During the festivals in July/August (Obon), a lot of fans being used were a lot more like this:

  - http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Handheld-Folding-Blossoms-Cascade/dp/B0018GFK1Y

That may have changed.

When the mama-san of our local izakaya (a sort of "pub") came back from holiday in China (or was it Thailand?), she brought back some of this type of sandal-wood deal as souvenirs:

  - http://www.amazon.com/Leegoal-Chinese-Sandalwood-Scented-Openwork/dp/B003Y79034

I'm guessing that this is probably what is being referred to in the article?

N.B. I'm only using the Amazon product links as exemplars. I do not intend to implicate the retailer (Amazon, here), the manufacturer or the products in my adventures of mis-remembering.

"Companies like Tencent which makes WeChat, a communications app that seems far ahead of what foreign apps can do"

What's so special about WeChat? Haven't used it, but interested what special could a chat app do.

Check out http://a16z.com/2015/08/06/wechat-china-mobile-first/ , it was an interesting perspective shift for me.

A decline in low-quality Chinese goods would certainly be a boon for the environment. The amount of waste plastic from discarded pens alone must be huge.

You'll have to get a decline in purchasing first.

??? The demand for pens is pretty elastic. If pens all cost $10 then people would be more careful with them and fewer of them would end up throw away

If pens cost $10, someone would come out with a $9 pen and the cycle would start again.

Maybe it's just as well. Ballpoint pens are terrible.

How The Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/ballpo...

Discussed earlier this year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10141874

As a lefty, cursive can stay dead.

Hello fellow lefty. What do you use to write on paper these days? I've got the last remaining good Bic Reactive pens stashed at work, but I don't think I can get any more.

Pentel EnerGel Liquid Gel Ink 0.5(Made in Japan) is the best left friendly pen I have used to date, ink dries instantly so no lefty smudge. The sharpie pen is a close second.

I usually carry around a Pilot G-2 these days. I've been pretty happy with them and they're easy to find in stores when I need more. In general, I'll favor a gel pen with fast-drying ink.

I buy boxes of Uni Jetstream 0.5mm (black) pens, they're really great (major problem being I put them in my pocket so they tend to travel between bags/desks). just the right feel for my left hand.

http://www.jetpens.com/Uni-Jetstream-Standard-Ballpoint-Pen-...

I write cursive with a Pilot G-Tec C4 and am a lefty. I also tend to write very small and generally never had a problem with fine tips, thicker tips and fountain pens OTOH disagree with me. So i guess it's just a matter of trying things (and pens) out :)

That's because you're writing incorrectly!

The sinistrous among us should be writing right-to-left. Yeah, OK, so most people may need a mirror to read it - but it's natural for you.

Aside: the world is terribly 'right biased'. With all the other individualist movements of our era, why not a 'Sinistra Liberation Front' or something similar...?

Kind of off-topic, but it might interest you to learn that adults are left-hemispace biased - consistently, we tend to scan the left side of our field of vision first, and in video games preferentially shoot at targets on our left. This holds true to a surprising degree across all the potential causes people have thought to test for so far - lefties do it, people in countries where they drive on the other side, people in countries where they read right-to-left...

So, while I'm sure the world is annoyingly biased against lefties, not all of the asymmetry you see is because of handedness.

I was brought up on italic handwriting like many in the UK, it works for me.

I personally can't write for a long time with a biro / ball point pen of any make or expense because of the tightness of the grip needed as mentioned in the article cited above (not the OA).

My test is simple, can the pen make a mark on the paper when I drag it down the page without any pressure other than the weight of the pen? If so, its fine, if not, I can use it for forms but not much else.

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