Men’s Locker Room Designers Take Pity on Naked Millennials | Hacker News Reader

Men’s Locker Room Designers Take Pity on Naked Millennials

nytimes.com

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Watching old men walk around and have conversations with each other about their wife and kids while their drooping hairy genitals flap back and forth has been a time honored gymgoing right of passage for generations. These young whippersnappers have no respect for tradition, clearly.

We always referred to them as the flaunters. They would carry a towel in hand, which was counter to my traditional towel wrapping technique. Basic qualification for the flaunters was grey hair.

i'm on the older side of the millennial generation (born in 1980) and since I was 22, I've been going to one of those nicer gyms where there's lots of old men walking around with their junk hanging out.

it bothered me for about 6 months, then i got over it.

also realized that it was an amazing place to network. putting up walls would have been bad for my career.

Can we get over the generations concept soon? Younger people are less mature... because they are younger.

At some point the millennials will be the old generation complaining about how we used to have to actually "text" rather than just think our ideas and have them transcribed.

There will be something about how the process of having to conceive of grammar and spelling made your thoughts more coherent.

But society will move on anyway, and yes, the younger generation will be less mature, at least, until it gets older.

I never really understood why it bothers people so much that things progress. But maybe I am just grumpy because it is Monday :)

Differences in attitudes between generations are interesting to think about, and illustrative of changes to society. Are you suggesting that literally the only differences between generations are related to maturity? The article didn't seem overly "bothered" by the millennial attitudes it described, rather it was simply noting them and exploring the idea that business practices may need to change to accommodate them. The only one who seems "bothered" is you, so maybe you are feeling grumpy! Hope you feel better soon :)

The problem with discussions of change to society and differences between generations is it's very tempting for people talking about those things to extrapolate anecdotes and first-hand experiences, which measure the journalist more than they measure society.

For example, a 25-year-old journalist might think that getting married and having children has risen in popularity compared to 7 years ago. Is it a sign people are recovering confidence after the 2008 economic downturn? Maybe - but it might just mean all his/her friends from school are getting married and having kids, and more people do that at age 25 than at age 18. Maybe society hasn't changed at all :)

Yeah, more coffee helps. :)

The differences are 1) maturity and 2) changes to society are generally reflected more in younger people than in older people.

My point is that many conflate #1 with #2 and therefore argue that the changes (to both society and the new generation) are bad.

But yes, my statement was more taking issue with the general attitude towards millennials appearing just about everywhere. This particular article only touched on it, but I probably responded to the the general sentiment just because I a little grumpy :).

The problem I am really having with the concept of generations is we end up judging people based upon their age rather than discerning the separate concepts of individuals + a changing society.

>Can we get over the generations concept soon?

The article isn't about broad, inter-generational disparities. It was about one in particular (and perhaps even exclusively American): comfortability with being nude around other people.

Having grown up around locker rooms, I don't think twice about hopping in the public shower. Maybe that's not everyone's cup of tea, but the idea of being completely averse and uncomfortable to a point strikes me as odd. Where does it come from?

My own personal hypothesis? An explosion of sexual content in media, coupled with, somewhat ironically, much more tolerance of gay people, means that for a lot of people their only exposure to nudity is in a (potentially) sexual context.

Apparently, as the article references, the practice of the social expectation of participation in post-PE showers in high school (the actual requirement to do so had stopped most places by the 1980s, AFAIK) pretty much collapsed during the 1990s (why that happened might be an interesting question) -- as a result, adults of the millennial generation haven't been socialized into that being a context where nudity with strangers is normal. That really seems to be the whole of the effect.

It's not just age, though. There IS a significant cultural difference that is generational. As someone in their late 30s, it strikes me how extremely uncomfortable men in their 20s are with nudity. I mean, it takes significant effort to do the "under the towel caterpillar shuffle" to change, all because having a bare butt for the 4 seconds from when your towel is dropped until your underwear is on is untenable.

> I mean, it takes significant effort to do the "under the towel caterpillar shuffle" to change, all because having a bare butt for the 4 seconds from when your towel is dropped until your underwear is on is untenable.

Hah. So I worked at a USAF base. We received 3 hours/week as "fitness leave". Two gyms available, running trails and places to go cycling or swimming. I took them up on it because, dude, why not get in good shape if the office is going to pay you to? I kept trying to talk coworkers into going with me (for runs, or as lifting partners). But they wouldn't, "I don't want to change in the locker rooms." Ok, fine, they have bathroom and shower stalls you can change in. "I don't want to see other guys walking around naked." Dude, it's nothing you've not seen before. Sure you haven't seen that guy naked, but just don't look, or keep your eyes up, or get over it. They literally opted not to make their lives a bit better (less time in the office, more time in the gym, gym time didn't take away from free time, etc.) because they were so scared of seeing another man naked.

> Can we get over the generations concept soon?

No, because while only loose groupings, it nevertheless captures real and meaningful things.

> Younger people are less mature... because they are younger.

This isn't about more or less maturity, so much as a cultural shift in expectations with succeeding generations. The generation that didn't (for a variety of reasons) shower together in high school the way previous generations did, perhaps unsurprisingly (when viewed in that context), is more resistant to doing so as adults.

> I never really understood why it bothers people so much that things progress.

Cultural expectations bother people with different preference than what is dominant; so, unsurprisingly, generational shifts in cultural expectations bother people whose preferences align with the previously dominant expectations.

I'm surprised at the comments here. I wonder how many of you experienced bullying in gym class over your body's appearance. The privacy of one's naked body is pretty important thing to a lot of people, but particularly to young teenagers, many of whom would opt out of gym class if they could, and who often enter puberty at very different ages. Even if you are or were comfortable walking around naked in front of others, it's cruel to force all people to face something that just isn't necessary.

Now, I agree that "comfy couch corners" and "sexy glass escape pods" seem silly and unrealistic (albeit typical of such NYT articles) but just basic privacy for showers and dressing ought to be a no-brainer for locker rooms for any age.

Fortunately, when I was in high school (1999-2003), guys didn't get naked in the locker room before and after PE.

I don't know what the girls did, because this was years before my transition, but in the guys' locker room, nobody ever took off their underwear. We all swapped our regular clothes and our gym clothes out while leaving our boxers in place. We didn't shower, either, which is something the article mentions in passing (with a link to a more detailed article on the subject).

The only time I ever saw people naked (as much as I tried not to) was on the rare occasions we'd go swimming for gym class.

Same here.

Many years later my sister became a teacher and her main complaint about teaching was "the kids stink."

In retrospect I have no idea how bad I smelled after running several miles or playing kickball and then not showering because it was just not done by anybody in gym. The stigma of showering among peers was great enough that nobody seemed to care, although this may be more a symptom of a general lack of self-awareness among kids that age.

What do you mean, 'fortunately'?. Not only is it disgusting from a hygiene point of view -- especially wrt sweaty teenagers! -- it's also a great way to come to terms with nudity. With porn as the main source of nudity, it's no wonder that so many teens have self-image issues.

I think the 'fortunately' was in reference to OP saying she was pre-transition, which I imagine might make a men's locker room experience anxious and painful, and I thank OP for bringing up that perspective because I hadn't considered it while thinking about my own locker room experiences.

I agree with you that showering after wrestling practice forced me to come to terms with nudity, and I'm grateful for the confidence boost that comes from seeing that most men look the same under their clothes. (But I don't think "size anxiety", if you will, is limited to special snowflake Millennials who haven't been naked in front of others... it seems like many men of all ages worry about it and feed into a thriving industry of enlargement scams -- at least judging by the contents of my spam folder!)

Exact same years as you, the girls never fully undressed either at my HS. Some of the more bullied would try to change in the bathroom, but our PE teacher shut that down really quick for some reason.

This is also, as far as I know, an American concept - growing up in NZ we never had to group shower.

The only place I can remember such nudity would be the at the pools, which as a young lad you went into the changing rooms with your dad, who proceeded to strut in the nuddy around with the other old hairy men care-free... and you knew then that until you had the self-confidence of hairy old men you'd never truly be able to call yourself a man.

I'm from the UK. It seems to be a bit more complicated here; increasingly, environments consisting of perfect strangers --- such as public pools --- are getting individual changing cubicles. (Possibly, I suspect, because you can make them unisex[1] and not have to have outfit two complete changing rooms.)

[1] People keep using that word. I don't think it means what we think it means.

But environments where people know each other, even by association, still have the locker room thing. e.g. gyms, sports centres, etc.

Also, bear in mind that this is all hugely culture-specific. When I went to Korea and visited my hotel sauna, discovering that there were two, one for men and one for women, and the one I saw was populated almost entirely by elderly Korean completely naked businessmen, was a bit of a culture shock. It didn't take long to get used to but I wouldn't say it was ever pleasant. Man, humans are ugly without sexual attractiveness tilting the scales...

> I wonder how many of you experienced bullying in gym class over your body's appearance.

I did.

> The privacy of one's naked body is pretty important thing to a lot of people, but particularly to young teenagers

This isn't about school gyms, and the youngest group this article discusses is millenials, who are almost entirely adults (though the label includes some late teens, as well.)

I was specifically responding to the commenters in this thread who suggested that forced communal nudity of the sort that (used to?) go on in middle- and high-school gym class is a character-building exercise, and that people who prefer privacy for their naked body are "precious" and weak. I understand the article is not strictly about that experience, but it refers to it, and the trend towards privacy in locker rooms may well be because younger adults were not forced into getting naked in front of their peers. If so, that's all for the good.

> This isn't about school gyms, and the youngest group this article discusses is millenials, who are almost entirely adults (though the label includes some late teens, as well.)

The definition of "Millennial" consists of people born from 1982 to 2004, so right now it still includes all teenagers and preteens, as well as adults (ages 11 to 33).

Is the article about teens? They aren't talking about putting these into schools. These are for adults.

Having more private locker rooms could have negative psychological side effects on us. At first the naked locker room is weird. However after a while you stop caring. Its almost like a body self empowerment.

I can see the positive & negative side of it though. However sheltering the youth from all negative feedback is not a good thing either. People need to grow up facing adversity.

I agree. My first thought reading the article was "can this generation become any more precious?"

Feelings are great, but when you put them in the driver's seat you don't get the chance to see how they can change and how you can grow in the process. It's the difference between being scared of flying all your life and getting past that fear. There's pride in overcoming your fears. You feel less like a victim.

Nope. You're conflating two _very_ unrelated trends to prove your pre-existing 'can this generation become any more precious' belief.

For example, people in India are generally opposite of what you might call 'precious'. Parents will very openly call out their kids on their body size, their appearance, there whatever. Young men and womanly will openly (and sometimes, far too much) discuss relative attractiveness of persons -- often admitting that while they themselves are not that attractive, so and so is even uglier, etcetera. They are, I would imagine, not in any sense of the word 'precious' or coddled. The South Asian cultures are also the epitome of what might be considered 'collective' culture, versus the more American individualistic, 'me-me-me' culture.

And yet. People never ever ever get naked. Ever. Not even when they shower. In their private bathrooms. With no one watching. There's joke about how South Asians don't get naked even when having sex (which, I'm told, appears to reflect reality). You would imagine, with people so comfortable with friends and families (note South Asian men have traditionally been verrry comfortable being physically close to other men, including holding hands, frequent hugs, etcetera), they would not be as shy about nudity. And yet they are.

Here's another datapoint: the Japanese, who are still culturally very family-community centered, will get naked at a drop of a feather.

Use your 'precious generation doesn't want to get naked' theory to explain these, and your theory will pass the basic test.

The difference here is we're not observing long standing cultural attitudes in millennials, but a very short term shift that defies their parent culture. You're criticising OP for not comparing apples and oranges ~ doesn't make sense. OP's point stands.

OP claims to explain the 'shying away from nudity' phenomena using the 'ahh those precious young people' argument. I argue that it's not necessarily the 'precious youth' that is shy of nudity, and I present a cross-cultural proof that shyness of nudity is not necessarily due to his presumed cause.

Comparing Apples to Oranges is exactly what's needed here. By doing so, I'm helping isolate the variable OP suggests affects Apples is not so. Imagine he'd claimed that Apples are suddenly brown because of 'those damn young trees'. If I show that those darned young trees elsewhere don't have the same issue, then there'd be a greater need on the OP's side to actually provide the proof that it's those darned precious young people.

OP needs to provide a greater proof that it's because of those 'precious youth'. I might argue that it's due to increased cultural influence of more body-conservative cultures, or because (ridiculous as it may sound) online nudity is now so common, people don't want their online versions to be identified to offline bodies [which is VERY different from what OP argues].

> but a very short term shift that defies their parent culture.

Except its not a "very short term shift that defies their parent culture", its a long term drift in the broader culture, as the article notes: Gen-Xers are notably different than Boomers on this, in the same direction (though not to the same degree) as Millenials.

The Japanese are a bit special. Japan is hot and humid, and traditionally a lot of the labour would get you wet. It was not uncommon for Japanese men and women to work the fields, or catch fish, naked or nearly naked. In fact, some early Western visitors commented as such.

The perceived Japanese sense of modesty and prudeness is a relative new phenomenon, instigated after WW2 by American prudeness.

I believe the article and discussion were only on US culture and how it changes as the years go by. Of course using the "precious generation doesn't want to get naked" theory won't explain those, they are a completely different culture to the US.

It seems to me that previous generations complain a whole lot more about purported delicacies in millennials than millennials who actually manifest those delicacies. Gen-Xers have complained for decades about locker room nudity (it's a standard trope of comedy from the 80s and 90s, in fact), so in context, at least some of those insecurities are clearly inherited.

If you're concerned about the negative impact of not being used to seeing naked bodies, maybe fix the way our media and government is terrified of naked bodies instead of forcing people to be naked in front of other people to access basic public accommodations like gyms. This is especially cruel to younger kids when they're going to get harassed.

>forcing people to be naked in front of other people to access basic public accommodations like gyms.

There's an air of...entitlement(?) to comments like this. Nobody is forced to be naked in front of others, and a gym isn't a public accommodation. If it doesn't work for you, don't go there.

Gym membership is not a "right". Everyone's particular sensibilities can not be taken into account. If the market demands privacy the market will deliver privacy.

Middle- and high- schoolers were often forced to get naked in front of their peers during mandatory gym class in the US. Such communal showering continued into college dorms as well. Things have changed for a large part and young people expect more personal privacy now. So it makes sense that gyms that want to accomodate the tastes of their customers would start providing more privacy.

By the way, a gym is absolutely a public accommodation, but it's true that gyms for adults generally do not require you to get naked in front of other members of the gym (you're free to leave sweaty). Still I can't think of a good argument as to why a gym should go out of its way to avoid allowing its members privacy in the locker room...

The two are obviously related, though maybe not causally.

Over here in Belgium, such prudeness is pretty rare.

This is definitely improved by the "millenials" => "snake people" translator.

I really don't think people at the gym care that much about being nude in the locker room. This reads a lot like a paid-for ad for design services.

Well that's extremely self-selecting isn't it? There's an unknown number of potential gym customers who don't go because they're uncomfortable. And I bet a bunch of current gym-goers would pay more if they didn't have to put up with it. Sounds like a good business move to me.

Anecdotally, in my gym a lot of the younger people shower while wearing underwear.

Does this actually happen in real life? Underwear, like cotton things you wear under your clothes normally, not swimwear?

Yes, actual underwear. I assume the same one they exercized in. (Amazing life hack: shower in your undies and save $$$ in laundry!)

It amazes me as much as you even though I see it every other day.

Millennials? Gyms like Equinox in NYC start at over $600 per month. I see the described designs as adding luxury to wealthy clients, not adding privacy to pee-shy youngins.

> Gyms like Equinox in NYC start at over $600 per month

No, they don't. That's ridiculous.

You're right, I was thinking of the starting fee. The monthly rate is around $200:

http://ny.racked.com/2015/1/13/7561179/nyc-chain-gyms-cost

That's still a lot to pay per month for a gym membership.

It's also New York, and Equinox.

NYSC is basically the Starbucks of gyms in the city, they are middle of the road and everywhere. Their rates are $20-30 a month now.

It is but anyone who can afford to go there probably works for a place that subsidizes partially or wholly their membership. It's kind of a funny system when you think about it.

Try $230

The article didn't mention that this is also being done to short-circuit the overwhelming opposition (using nakedness as a wedge) to trans-people in locker rooms of their identified gender.

This was incredibly tart. Some of us younger millennials are not "subsidized" and scrape up the extra money per month for a gym because we are concerned about aging healthfully. I, too, bristled at the writer giving the "special snowflake millennial" dead horse another dryfuck.

A large percentage of people who go to the gym go because they have body image issues. No need to make going even harder for them.

I'm a Gen-Xer and I went to great lengths to avoid getting naked in front of classmates. I still don't like being naked in front of strangers.

I cringe when I hear stories about swimming naked in high school in the 1950s.

I suspect a part of this is due to America's losing of a Spa culture. Korea, Russia, Germany and Scandinavian countries seem to have (comparatively) thriving cultures, which make people more comfortable being naked around each other.

I do agree with the common sentiment here though, what a tired, boring trope to pillory millennials for this quirk. It's hardly ideal that they're becoming more body conscious, but it's quite a great solace to instead appreciate how much they're advocating for tolerance in our society.

There weren't any more spas in the US during the 1960s and 1970s, but there certainly were common showers in the locker rooms in high schools and junior high schools. For that matter, there were in the early 1980s, when a race I ran in ended at a junior high school.

1) It started long before millennials. Gang showers pretty much disappeared in anything built after 1990. 2) I hear the military has mostly gone private showers too. Thats how pervasive this trend it. 3) I remember school teacher friends complaining how smelly their students were. They just would not shower after gym class and still dont. These days many schools are so informal that kids just wear athletic clothes all day. 4) Other than sociological phenomena, I dont really care.

Having a private changing area is something that could be very good for trans people.

Now if only they'd do this for women's locker rooms, too...

I had the same thought. I've hesitated to join a gym for that very reason.

As usual, the older generations fear change and subsequently lash out at the younger generations. The cycle continues.

I think of myself still as the young generation since I am from the so called millennials. Generally speaking I hate dumb stuff. Giving a fuck about what someone thinks about your body is dumb. Also in the gym - nobody does. Nobody really even thinks you exist and everyone has something better to do. You get, you undress, dress and get out.

Do i fear change - hardly. Privacy requires space. Space means higher rents, which mean higher fees. I personally prefer to see/show from time to time acknowledgment that penises exist outside of porn and giger works and keep the gym experience cheap.

> Generally speaking I hate dumb stuff.

When people say that, I think what it usually means is "I place the label 'dumb' on anything that differs from my personal preferences".

> Giving a fuck about what someone thinks about your body is dumb.

Giving a fuck about what someone thinks about you is the natural human condition. That's not really the point, though. Privacy isn't about having something to hide, it's about the right to choose.

But if you personally prefer to stare at dongs all day, you'll still have the internet and politics.

> But if you personally prefer to stare at dongs all day, you'll still have the internet and politics.

It's easy not to stare, you literally control your eyes. You can direct them upward. As a male (assuming heterosexual) do you find it impossible to not stare at women's cleavage? If you can look away from that, and you're attracted to it, then why would looking away from other men's genitals be difficult when you're not attracted to them?

That was in response to "I personally prefer to see/show from time to time"

Compared to paying for a lot of useless waste of space ignoring a glimpse of a dick is not a big deal.

Have we lost the ancient art of ignoring? And do we have only stare or hide as responses to nudity in people we have no obligation to interact with?

Again, that's irrelevant. Privacy is the exercise of the right to one's personal agency. Everybody has the right to choose to whom they will expose their naked self, and that's simply all there is to it. It's not about shame, ignoring, staring, self-consciousness, sexuality, or whatever other issues you're trying to conflate it with. It's simply a person's choice, which has entirely no negative effects on anyone else.

You've no right to demand to see anyone naked at any time, and I certainly hope you don't believe you would have that right. Why does putting a bunch of people of the same gender in a room and putting a sign on the door change that at all?

Of course. But excising said right does not makes them immune from criticism. Especially when it has the added benefit of making the gym more expensive for everyone else.

Criticizing someone for exercising their right to privacy is not going to win you many friends.

Also, a simple curtain is plenty. The article's talk about frosted glass pods are obviously a cherry-picked example intended to make millenials seem more absurd. It's simple capitalism, you very likely wouldn't see any change in your rates at all, and if you did then the gym down the street will undercut your gym with a "Strut Friendly" locker room.

The concept of non-sexual nudity is very quickly disappearing in the US. I play on a co-ed hockey team and there is one gal that has no qualms about hopping in the shower with the guys. It is not weird because we all realize that it is non-sexual. That being said, in the main locker room area, I do try to minimize the amount that I expose myself to the other women that are not as comfortable, but that is out of respect for them, not my own fears.

I wonder how would they deal with co-ed showers and sauna's in mainland Europe where you can have a 65 year old man steaming next to a 22 year old woman both naked and no one bats an eye.

Wait a second. I thought that the millenials were too busy sexting one another, or at least it seems as if that was the current moral panic. Now they're afraid to be seen without clothes?

I'm a millennial and had no issues going to a foreign country and getting naked with complete strangers. (Japan, visiting an onsen.)

The problem is with American prudish behavior and helicopter "nudity-is-bad" parenting. I agree with many of the comments below: no wonder people have body/self image issues. The only nudity they see is from porn.

Maybe I have some natural talent (doubtful), but changing under a towel is really easy and convenient, so I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I first learned the "skill" on crowded beaches.

> “Old-timers, guys that are 60-plus, have no problem with a gang shower and whatever,” Mr. Dunkelberger said. “The Gen X-ers are a little bit more sensitive to what they’re spending and what they’re expecting. And the millennials, these are the special children. They expect all the amenities. They grew up in families that had Y.M.C.A. or country club memberships. They expect certain things. Privacy, they expect.”

or maybe the naked old guy in the locker room is a common joke for a reason.

As someone's mentioned on Twitter, I'd like a browser extension that replaces "Millennials" with 'people more youthful, more attractive, and more sexually active than us', please!

/me raises one eyebrow

Prettier != more sexually active. If you're lucky you'll find this out for yourself, eventually

I have, unfortunately, learned this already. STILL makes one not feel better about oneself, haha. But that's for a different day and a different thread on a different forum. : )

Talking of nudity, to all those 'those dang young people' arguments: how does one reconcile young people are getting more comfortable with ONLINE nudity, but less with offline.

We ['millennials'] get hated on either way. There's news of snapchat and sexts, and we're told 'those damn millennials, strutting about their stuffs like they invented sex'. We get shy about nudity, and we're told 'those damn millennials. So precious, can't even stand to be naked in front of other people'. Give us a break, Olds.

pjc50 recommends the millennials to snake people translator [1]. I concur; it certainly improved my enjoyment of this discussion.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/millennials-to-sna...

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