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Comment by Afton | Hacker News Reader

These techniques are useful when you have a large pool of young extremely healthy men. Then when they blow out knees, shoulders, back, etc you can just select the ones who didn't break. Claiming that this is a useful and effective way to train is a terrible idea.

The only reason this kind of article is useful at all is that virtually everyone who trains a sport fails to train hard enough. In other words, after you remove all the fancy language and rah-rah spirit, you are left with "You should probably try harder". And that's probably good advice.

My two cents.

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I regularly participate in events known as GORUCK Challenges. They're 12 hour+ endurance events led by current and former special forces operatives from all branches of the military.

Yes, there are plenty of young extremely healthy men at these events, but they're the minority. The majority of participants are over 30 years old, in good but not great or extreme condition, and tend to be 10-30% female.

These events are hard. Hours of PT, carrying of heavy objects for hours at a time, all while wearing a backpack that weighs at minimum 25#.

Success rate is about 94%. Yes, there is some principle of self-selection at work whereupon if you're dumb enough to sign up for such a thing you're predisposed to survival, but the biggest reason that participants finish is because we are all capable of so much more than we think.

That's the point of the article, IMO. Don't try harder, just don't fucking quit. Hell, try less if that's what it takes to not quit.

Edit: accidentally hit enter too soon. I wanted to say something about "not training hard enough" not being the issue with most athletes I see, rather they're training too hard with poorly designed programming.

> Hell, try less if that's what it takes to not quit [...] most athletes I see [...] they're training too hard

Yeah, this was a huge lesson for me. I was used to being good at the things I spent time on. So when I'd try doing sporty things, I'd overestimate my current level and underestimate how much work it takes to improve. Training would be awful and discouraging and I'd quit.

Less ambitious training was the key for me to learn to not give up. At this point I've done a couple of triathlons and I don't know how many distance runs. I never would have gotten there without a big dose of humility and being realistic.

I can do 6 chinups right now (I happen to have tested last night of all things). If I tried to do 100 chinups, I would certainly be scheduling a Physical Therapy session tomorrow to deal with the pain in my elbow. Unless I was having surgery for a tear in my shoulder.

There is lots to recommend "don't give up". But it also has to be tempered with "Stop if it hurts". You'll get fit/strong/endurancy-faster if you can keep training tomorrow than if you have to spend three weeks icing your wrists and gobbling down NSAIDs.

EDIT: Leaving this up for posterity because why not. After re-reading your comment, I'm not convinced that we disagree. It's just that the whole thing becomes extremely nuanced once you start talking about things like: "I'm stopping doing e.g. chinups today so that I can do more tomorrow. I'm not giving up on my goal, I'm just altering the timeframe". Here it's not clear how you should interpret the "Don't give up" mantra.

You said you can do 6 chinups right now, but if you tried to do 100, you'd be in physical therapy the next day. Trying to do 100 implies you're going to do as many as you can. Given that, are you scheduling a physical therapy session, since you did as many as you could last night (6)?

Most people would understand that the poster meant after 6 chinups the poster reaches muscle failure and stops trying to do more. The poster could continue to struggle against the muscle failure until (s)he eventually achieves 100 chinups, but that would result in physical injury to go along with the achievement.

Have you ever tried doing a chinup? There is NO WAY you're going to do 100 continuous chinups. I'd like someone to explain how you're going to hurt yourself by trying to do that. Forcing it just results in you hanging there in futility.

There is quite a difference between "this hurts because it is uncomfortable" and "this hurts because I am damaging my body." Most of the time you can tell the difference.

I've also heard it put this way: "If it hurts, it means you're doing it right. If you're in pain, stop."

Agreed. And when a person is new to training it's wisest to err on the side of caution because it takes time to learn how the body feels when it's uncomfortable vs when it's injured.

I should have been more clear in my response that when I say "don't fucking quit" that "...just because you're uncomfortable" is implied. The 100 chinups from the article is a pretty bad example, candidly, of something to be powering through, especially, if you're not already in decent condition and have that sense of hurt vs injury. The degree of discomfort could become so high that it masks the injury signals from the structure of the shoulder.

People assume they can tell the difference but the kind of chronic inflammation you get from overuse can sneak up on you. I saw a story about a concert pianist many years ago who was having trouble with his wrists. At the time his doctor or maybe it was teacher treated it like a muscular problem and told him to keep training so his wrists would get stronger. Eventually he built up so much scar tissue on his tendons that he was no longer a concert pianist...forever. WRT the article, sure you can run a marathon every day of the week. Impressive. I'd fear what that guy would be like after 40 years

>I'd fear what that guy would be like after 40 years

Curious, what you imply by that. I have read about the skin (mostly the face) of runners not so great, because of exposure to so much weather. Did you imply something along these lines or something else?

joints tendons and so forth. Pounding your knees that much without sufficient recovery could be bad. Not for everyone mind you. I've read that old age involves much more pain for retired pro athletes, for example

He did 100 chin ups one at a time. If you can do six in one go, you can probably do 100 over the course of 5 hours pretty easily and safely.

backpack weighs twenty-five what?

Pounds.

It's probably a somewhat obsolete usage of #, especially in a twitter world, but it isn't really obscure (the key is often called the "pound sign" when it isn't called a hash).

Pounds.

I believe that you're both right.

When I was actively weightlifting, I learned to keep pushing myself. I'd keep a journal and force myself to work harder every time. It's all too easy to just say "I'm tired, I did a lot last week, my goals are being met." It's harder to say all these things but still add even just 2 lbs to the bar or squeeze out one more rep than last time.

Over time, you get used to constantly trying harder and the mental effort decreases while the physical effort increases.

On the other hand, you need to know when to quit. You need to understand when your body is saying "if you do this, I won't just be sore; I'll be seriously hurt." Learning to differentiate being exhausted, having sore muscles and breathing so hard your lungs are on fire from that stab of pain from a nerve that says "STOP NOW" is crucial.

I was lucky: the few times I ignored that voice telling me to stop I was able to walk away with no more than a few bruises or a pulled muscle.

I hope to be able to do a "Light" sometime in the next 24 months, myself. The Tough and Heavy are just too much.

Gonna start out with a Kill That 5K.

I'd really encourage you to do the Challenge. You will have the opportunity to learn some things about yourself, good and bad, that you will not get during the Light. That knowledge is worth the added difficulty. Your team will get you through. There will be men and women with multiple events under their belts who will be there to pick you up mentally and physically when and if you start to founder.

I've got to work my way up to the 5K and then to the Light; a Challenge/Tough (or Heavy) isn't on the radar right now due to some physical handicaps and limitations (google "subglottic stenosis").

Well that's a whole different deal there. :)

When you do the Light, the Cadre ask "does anyone have any medical conditions we should know about". Speak up, or at least talk to the Cadre before the event so he's briefed on the likelihood of incidence as well as treatment. Also, some of the Cadre were/are 18Ds, e.g. medics, and depending upon the severity of your condition you may wish to seek out an event run by one of them.

I don't know what you're doing for training, maybe you have that well in hand, but I highly recommend looking into the programming done by Rob Shaul at http://strongswiftdurable.com. They respond quickly to emails and are great about recommending plans based on your goals and current capabilities.

Yeah, I have no intention of doing the Light until I know my condition won't be a problem or I won't be a hindrance to the rest of my team.

Thanks for the link! I'll check it out.

Absolutely on the first point. I believe the #1 thing the Navy wants from SEALs is people who just won't quit. The Nave doesn't train them not to quit, it just creates tests that search for this quality.

I'm unconvinced that the SEAL in question suddenly realized one day there was a "secret" to not quitting; it's just how he's hardwired.

The other problem is overtraining:

http://www.outsideonline.com/1986361/running-empty

Sometimes you get to the point where the harder you attempt to push through fatigue, the more likely you are to do long-term harm. Unfortunately it's difficult figuring out when you've reached that point.

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