Comment by hajile | Hacker News Reader

Comment by hajile | Hacker News Reader

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You mean like when Lawrence Summers was forced to resign from Harvard because he said that (well-known) differences in IQ distribution might have an impact on the number of women in STEM, but more research was needed (and fighting against sexism should also continue).

He was completely right with his information. The bell curve for male IQ is much shallower resulting in men greatly outnumbering women both at the top and the bottom of the IQ chart (note: that doesn't mean that a man with the same IQ as a woman is smarter, just that there are more men with higher IQs).

The idea that abstract logic, spatial reasoning, and pattern recognition (what IQ indicates) are primary components in being good at STEM is well-known too. The one idea definitely implies the other and stating that causal implication shouldn't be a crime.

Nobody stepped forward to disprove the science. They simply screamed sexism. They didn't care that he had even said that fighting the sexist component was also important. They didn't care that he had said the science might be disproven. They only cared that they didn't like the idea no matter if it was true or not.

History is filled with ideologues hurting and killing men of science for ideas we now know to be true. Freedom to research, study, and publish those studies without being threatened or harmed is paramount. If there's a problem, then fight the science -- not the scientist.

It's true that Lawrence Summers was largely ousted for an unpolitic statement; however, I would like to extend more credence to the Harvard Faculty, which collectively, overwhelmingly, voted to dismiss him as president.

1. I think it's important also to recognize that the "science" he cited was not fool-proof. In the way that most science is not (for example, check out the 50 year long & still on-going dispute with Phillip Morris about the harmful effects of tobacco). And that moreover, the specific reports he cites can certainly be disputed on the methodology (where are minority women? where are women of different socio economic classes? where are women working in technical fields whose performance do not correspond to standardized test scores? etc)

2. Even if Summers was absolutely right about sex difference between men and women, some of the outrage directed towards him came not from particular concern with his science, but the effects that such statements would have on the construction of a liberal democratic society (which Harvard, despite it's many follies, is mostly invested in). A society which operates on the truth that women just can't do math as well is one which condones expectations that adversely effect female participation in communities of scientists, mathematicians, engineers, and tech-related fields.

*edit for formatting

1) Human males have that same kind of more even distribution across many other indicators. I don't know of any decent IQ study that doesn't easily reach similar conclusions.

The idea of relative distribution across races is a much different (and extremely dubious) question and far removed from the question of relative distribution between genders. It doesn't matter if minority women differ relative to other women if the relative difference between minority women and minority men of a given group is the same as the relative difference among the rest of the population.

The question of "other types of intelligence" is not at all related. The jobs in question are STEM. Something like social intelligence is very important, but does not make someone good at STEM and is therefore irrelevant.

2) Firstly, HE DID NOT SAY THAT! Equal chance to try doesn't mean equal chance to succeed. I had equal opportunity to try out for the football team, but there's no way I had equal chance to succeed.

Secondly, if the research is true, then all women should be given the opportunity to see if they can do the job (and those that can should definitely pursue that career if they want), but society shouldn't be blamed if because there are more men than women in STEM if the science says that gender parity in STEM won't happen.

Your "liberal democratic society" idea can go to hell because incorporating the truth into society is more important than anything when it comes to moving humanity toward a better future. If current society can't deal with that truth, then it needs to be modified so human progress can continue.

Regarding 2., are you saying that, in general, some true facts are so harmful that the public needs to be prevent from knowing them? And if so, who is in charge of determining what the public can know, and why are those people immune from the harmful effects of these beliefs?

For example you assume the existence of some people who believe that a liberal democratic society requires women in science and tech, even if they are inherently less able in these fields. Why then, can't these people explain to the public why this is the case, so that the public will then accept the need for women in these fields, regardless of the truth regarding IQ?

not at all. the 'facts' are obviously out there, but it's not the job of a university president to promote them, especially when their facticity is a) indispute and b) promotes expectations and norms in society that could and do adversely effects a segment of it.

summers is still a faculty member at harvard, he's just no longer president, and no longer speaking for the institution

All facts are going to be interpreted differently. So (a) alone is clearly not a good criterion. But if you are saying that (a) and (b) combined imply that a statement should be forbidden, then my critique still applies.

If you forbid Larry Summers from forming one plausible opinion based on the facts, even though you allow others (e.g. the opposite opinion), then your reasoning still must be along the lines that I outlined.

Why can't the public be trusted with the fact that Larry Summers draws one opinion from the data, even though other people have drawn different opinions.

Whenever your reasoning contains something like (b), my critique is going to apply, because you are arguing against a viewpoint based on its consequences, not on its truth (even if you also doubt its truth).

There was a big followup article in the "Notices of the American Mathematical Society" that actually looked at the numbers and concluded Summers was not supported by the data.

Given the highly political nature of this topic, I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by saying "this was debunked by experts" without even posting a link. Especially when being a mathematician doesn't make you an expert in statistics or sociology, so the Notices of the AMS can't be considered authoritative on this topic.

Here are the only two articles I can find mentioning Larry Summers

http://www.ams.org/notices/200810/fea-gallian.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/201201/rtx120100010p.pdf

They do not address the question of IQ in any meaningful way. They only seek to show that women can succeed in mathematics. Summers in no way said that women could not succeed in math (or any other STEM field). The question of IQ has more to do with potential candidates rather than success of those candidates.

Source? I'd love to read an article that disputes the finding (that men have greater variability in IQ and other traits than women).

And freedom to challenge commonly accepted ideas. Science in many respects is a form of Darwinism. People come up with crazy ideas, models and interpretations and the ideas that survive the best challenges from peers and experiments win over the weaker ideas.

Larry Summers took a vacation, got a 7 figure job in private industry, worked for the Obama administration and is now back at Harvard.

If only we could all be so persecuted.

That's a rather patronizing position. He was lucky because he is rich and connected.

The other scientists sacrificed on the alter of ideology are seldom in a similar position. When they lose their jobs, they don't have the same money and friends to fall back onto.

A fear of retribution hurts science and hurts human progress.

I casual looked/taken at a lot of IQ tests. I do think they are gender, race biased. I'm too lazy to research it, but just have a gut feeling. I don't think I've ever seen one that measures creativity, even remotely?

Actually, the older I get the more I think they should do away with IQ tests. Or, produce one that doesn't look like it was written by a bunch of white college professors.

Being too lazy to research it seems like a poor way to form your opinions.

The RAVEN IQ test [1] cannot possibly be gender or race biased, and this is the gold standard that is used to compare people across languages and cultures.

[1]: https://www.raventest.net/

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