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Comment by dmichulke | Hacker News Reader

Throughout the last hundred and fifty years, individual Germans have done more to further civilisation than the individuals of any other country; during the latter half of this period, Germans, collectively, have been equally effective in degrading civilisation.

Russell here is making the same mistake as most people today. It wasn't the "Germans collectively", it was the German government, tolerated by a mostly ignorant population with a few "hawks" to show support for the government action.

Contrary to the top post here right now, this is the same thing happening in the US right now. The government bombs another country every 1-2 years and people let it happen. We're still in appeasement times but the state already gradually disrespects individual liberties and soon America will become a collective much like the one described in the article.

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Well, I must disagree and say it was the "Germans collectively", at least in a large part (37% of them voted for Hitler in his last real election), but in their defense, it was the Treaty of Versailles, imposed upon the nation at the end of WWI, that basically forced them into this position.

Remember, Hitler and the National Socialist's were voted into party thru democratic means, although to be sure, democracy was never really a part of the German zeitgeist back then.

All the major players knew the ToV was going to lead to another war, and it sowed the seed for the rise of some sort of militaristic, Fascist government.

Well, with Obama (who was elected by the American people) attacking at least two souvereign countries (Lybia, Syria) will you hold the American population responsible?

More generally, if I vote today for X and tomorrow X turns out to be a murderer, will you hold it against me because I can only vote every 5 years?

I didn't vote for Obama, but I do remember he put a great deal of effort in telling supporters he was going to get us out of the wars of the Middle East, no?

Anyway, any equivalence between what is going on now the ME and what Hitler and the Nazis were doing back then is totally false.

I'm not saying they're equivalent, I'm saying that it's difficult to blame someone for his voting if he's bound to it for 5 years and can't change it.

The difference, to me at least, is that Hitler was very forthcoming with his plans for Germany...Mein Kampf quite clearly laid out his intentions, and almost all Germans owned a copy for political reasons.

So in that case, it seems voters knew exactly what they were getting (and eventually got) with Hitler.

Obama, not so much...obviously.

If we believe in democracy, yes! We are totally responsible.

The fact that there is such a disconnect between the actions of government and the will of the population shows how flawed "democracy" is.

> ...shows how flawed "democracy" is.

As compared to what?

Well democracy is supposed to be citizens participating directly in the political process. What we have is a very watered down version of democracy - we elect officials every few years, but don't really participate in law making or ratification.

I think it would be too easy to say that it was only the German government responsible for what happened. Below is a key quote:

What has happened? What has happened is quite simple. Those elements of the population which are both brutal and stupid (and these two qualities usually go together) have combined against the rest.

And another quote from Hannah Arendt:

Only the mob and the elite can be attracted by the momentum of totalitarianism itself. The masses have to be won by propaganda.

The problem might be that the "mob" is getting stronger for various reasons and there is an active elite that is eager to exploit them for their own gain.

"The government bombs another country every 1-2 years"

This is dumbing down history. The world would as we know it would not exist without all the US army involvement around the world in the last 100 years: notably WWI,WWII, the cold war, & many more.Some less glorious, indeed. But it's not "bombing every 1-2 years" but a mixture of defending freedom, sometimes financial interests, mistakes and more. But overall, there would not be a "free world" without the US power and the will to use it

FWIW, I believe one good deed doesn't "neutralize" a bad one.

You might be interested in reading about Operation Condor.

If only US military involvement was only in WW1 & 2. The US was one of the good guys then, sure. Most of the other conflicts US army has taken part sound like a powertrip from an arrogant white man. Indian wars and the resulting genocide, Vietnam war where the french wanted the US to spank their unruly colony into submission... I'm sorry to say, the parties who like to smear US have quite enough fact based material.

That said, I'm not claiming US is evil but it's not a force of good either.

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