My car was damaged with FlightCar and they don't care – here's the 3-month story | Hacker News Reader

My car was damaged with FlightCar and they don't care – here's the 3-month story

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78 pointsmikeyla8564 comments

I really don't get this concept. Never ever would I entrust a total stranger that I haven't even met with an expensive piece of machinery. You have zero control over what happens when you're not there and your car could easily end up being totaled, broken (in ways not easily seen immediately) or used in ways that conflict with the law. Sure, the 'middleman' will tell you it's all just fine and they're insured and what not. But in the end it's your problem to fix it if things don't work out and it won't take very much to offset the gains from going this route in the first place.

I love the basic idea behind the sharing economy, way too much stuff lying around unused. At the same time as a supplier of capital goods to that industry you're taking an awful lot of risk.

Edit: I did some googling about flightcar reviews:

http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.flightcar.com

I always feel hesitant to even give my car to a valet, who will only have it a short time and won't take it far. I could never imagine renting out my car to a stranger.

Although, renting out my HOUSE to a stranger is even more disturbing to me, but people do it!

I've never rented from a person (only from apartment communities); is there no background check involved in these cases?

Usually for sites like Airbnb.com, the only "background check" is looking at the potential renter's profile

I've almost always rented from individuals, and only real hard-asses in extremely tight rental markets (Bay Area?) will do a background check. Most will just interview you and, if you seem stable, take a deposit and give you a set of keys. It's not like you can run off with their apartment, and landlords are generally pretty good at getting a sense of how people will treat their property.

thanks!

I wasn't really talking about renting your house for a long term thing... that doesn't seem as disturbing, since you are moving out when they move in... I mean something like AirB&B, where you rent your place while your stuff is still in it.

duh. Should've guessed, given the context.

The big risk that people probably don't consider (and this may vary from state to state) is that if someone is injured on your property or in your house, you as owner are going to get sued.

If you lend your car to someone and they are in an accident causing serious property damage or injury, you as owner are going to get sued.

You may have insurance to cover these liabilities but you may find that your rates go up, or your policies get canceled, after a significant claim.

It's worse than that. Insurance for your private use of your consumer purchases often explicitly does not apply to commercial use. It can void your policy. Trying to submit a claim can get you charged with fraud.

I have read about this related to AirBnB. A quick google turns up this article, though I don't really think it was what I read previously: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/06/your-money/airbnb-offers-h...

(Also: I worked in insurance for a few years.)

And then you get to be in the middle of an argument over who pays. Well, what really happens is you have to pay so your car will work, and then you have to attempt to be reimbursed. What happens when it's not immediately obvious something is broken? eg someone who doesn't drive much nails a curb and screws your alignment, or leaves the parking brake on while driving around. Tolls and tickets are similar -- you pay, then hope to be reimbursed.

This seems like a potentially giant hassle to avoid a cab or uber or train ride.

edit: also, from their insurance policy [1], if a renter damages the vehicle

   In the event it is practical for FlightCar to repair the vehicle prior to 
   your return, you authorize us to do so, using solely quality licensed 
   establishments. FlightCar will cover the cost of professionally repairing 
   your vehicle to its original condition, or, in the event of total loss, up 
   to the vehicle’s cash value.

There are several huge problems. First, if you have a 1st party warranty, using an unapproved repair service can void that warranty. Goodbye 100k bumper-to-bumper warranty. Second, there can be a significant gap between blue-book value and what it costs you to go purchase a similar vehicle, particularly to purchase one right now because you don't have a car anymore. You agree to fund that out of pocket.

edit2: one more multi-thousand dollar problem: car tax. In CA in particular, I think I paid somewhere between 7.5% and 10% of the value of the car. On a $20k used car, you're going to also self-insure the $1.5k to $2k you have to pay to buy the replacement car.

[1] https://flightcar.com/insurance

A good insurance company will include taxes on the replacement in their total loss settlement offer.

How are you possibly going to get compensated when the transmission falls out a week after you rented the car out?

It was the thermostat and radiator, and I wasn't expecting / never asked for compensation for that. But the shop they took it to was going to charge $200 more than I ended up paying because they wanted to do things in a way that didn't really make sense / was easier for FlightCar.

I know. I was just writing about the general impossibility of getting compensation for unseen internal damage to the vehicle. The renter can ride the clutch for two hours until it starts making a gravelly, clanging noise, hand the car back over and walk away, and there is zero chance that any insurer will pay for it.

One particular model Ford (F150) comes in a version with a V8 that is a bit too strong for the frame. If you use it for what it's made (pull heavy stuff) at some point the transmission will simply drop out from underneath because the retainer bracket at the back is too light for the job. This happened to me (no warranty, they claimed the vehicle was not meant for heavy duty, in spite of being sold exactly as such...). I can easily imagine your 'tranny drops out from underneath' after renting your car out to someone that pushes that car a bit further than you normally do.

I'm still boycotting Ford over that whole affair, what a nonsense. Stick a 350+ HP engine in a car and then expect it to be used for shopping only...

One comedian back in the day was talking about "This amazing car I had on the weekend - it could go straight from 4th gear into Reverse: it was a rental car!"...

Exactly this. A rental car is prime for abuse. Recently my car needed body work after being hit in a parking lot. The bodyshop/dealership gave me a brand new Buick, 1200 miles on it, while they worked on my car. The guy said its still considered a new car up to 6 or 8 thousand miles (I cant remember which..). But all I did to that car was floor it and try to abuse it as much as possible. As shitty as it is to say, its fun to drive a car that you have no responsibility for.

Wow. I have really no words for this. One that you would do it, two that you would boast about it. Props for honesty I guess.

Ha, props or down votes for honesty? In all seriousness, I think my statement is only surprising for people not in the automotive industry. Most people I know that rent cars absolutely beat the shit out of them.

No downvote from me (no upvote either).

> Most people I know that rent cars absolutely beat the shit out of them.

Most people that I know don't. And when I rent a car I take good care of it, as good or better as if it were my own. I'll use it for what it is made for, not to see if I can contribute to the negative portion of the tragedy of the commons.

Think about it this way: your behavior with a rental car affects everybody renting cars, not just you. So you're not abusing the car, you're abusing the people around you and your net-negative contribution translates into higher rates and a negative expectancy about customer behavior on the part of the rental company. That you and those that you know that do this too can get away with it is no excuse.

> Think about it this way:...

That's how rational adults act. The US is very short on rational adults under 40 nowadays.

I agree. It's not that I don't understand that, but you are taking me saying I abuse the car as in I run into stuff and ruin the transmission. In reality I am just saying I drive a little more rough when the car isn't mine. Floor it, slam on break, but never endanger myself of someone else. I don't know, I thought this was the code of the rental car.

I'm going to go with some people are like you, and some people are like me. And the rates reflect the middle and won't change too much. Accidents are random and happen to people that take good care of their cars and people that don't.

I don't rent cars often. Generally when I do I am out of town, driving in unfamiliar places, and so driving with extra caution. But even if I were in town, I would not drive it recklessly.

Since you enjoy needlessly damaging property, there's all kinds of petty vandalism you can get away with too! One time I had my car keyed in a parking lot for no apparent reason. Cost me a couple hundred dollars and was a hassle to get fixed. At the time I was pretty upset, but now I understand it must have provided a few seconds of fun for the person who did it!

The whole "sharing economy" fad preys on people who don't properly understand risk. When the cost of risk is factored in you get the price before the market disruption.

Shhhh! You'll burst the bubble.

Not if it allows you to bring unused/underused capacity into use.

I couldn't agree more. As someone who made some stupid decisions by letting friends (or so I thought) borrow my car and take care of my cats (opened my home while I wasn't there) and who got totally fucked over for thousands of dollars, I'd never ever let anyone rent my car or in my house without me being there. I learned my lesson the hard way and many people are now learning the same hard lesson.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be this way. Companies like airbnb, flightcar, etc. have more than enough money to easily cover the damages that do occasionally happen. Their failure to act and remedy things basically shows what shitty companies they are. It's amazing to me that the biggest percentage of users of such services don't get fucked over, but it's even more amazing to see companies shirk their duties. In fact, if the company doesn't clearly list what they'd do in case of such foul play and their insurance policy, I don't even think they should be allowed to legally operate a business. Of course, this is part of a growing trend of companies trying to get rid of any liability they have and put it on their customers. I'm hoping that as more horror stories happen, someone will start legislating these companies and demand that they pay for any damages. Until then, I would stay away from such companies as a "host."

It's just stupid to do business with such companies, just as stupid as letting your friends borrow your car / stay in your place unsupervised. And that is indeed, quite stupid.

I have had the same experience. The car was returned dirty and there was damage on the body. They said they will pay me a measly $60. I asked for $180 since I spoke to a mechanic who said it will cost me that much in SF.

Since there was back and forth I said fine ok just give me the $60 saves me hassle I will foot the rest. I have not yet received the check this was several months ago.

Also another time we had left a credit card in the car by mistake. Someone ran up $700 in charges. Luckily card fraud protection covered us. Flight car did not give a crap when we reported it.

Don't use Flightcar, just take a shuttle or cab or whatever.

I will never forget the comment a disgruntled former Flightcar employee left on my rant I posted about Flightcar.

I am a current flightcar employee so I will be anonymous.

I read your post and listened to your recordings and I will do my best to break down whats going on a flightcar.

I am sorry to hear your experience...

Do not use flightcar or recommend flightcar to any one.

The CEO is a 20 year old kid and only interested in making money.

He moved the customer support to Philippines because he can get someone for like 10-12$ an hr. Great idea.. right? Let's connect the customers who are loaning flightcar a 30-40k car to someone in Philippines who does not understand english or even knows what a floor mat is.

Check out this post on reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/3...

An email sent by an angry coworker - http://imgur.com/eGhDhXM

Yelp reviews - http://www.yelp.com/biz/flightcar-south-san-fra...

Glassdoor reviews - http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/FlightCar-Revi...

The current working conditions are so shitty that my whole team hates our jobs. And it is not just you, my team and I are badgered by angry customers and we are just done and give 0 fucks to the customers. If your email is the spam in zendesk, it means that one of the philippines reps didnot want to respond to you and marked the email as spam so that the email disappears from their inbox.

SOOO what can you do? - Post your review to reddit, yelp, facebook and twitter so no other customers go through this. - Here is the CEOs number, you can try to call him - 609-529-8346

I have a few interviews so I don't care if flightcar shuts down, I will be leaving this hell hole very soon anyway.

You seem like a good guy, good luck and please read all the reviews before participating in a shared economy in the future.

From: http://watilo.com/open-letter-to-flightcar

Not surprised. Had a terrible experience with FlightCar. They didn't damage my car but I rented one. Arrived at the airport after a 13 hour flight, went to FlightCar, they said the car I was supposed to rent didn't come in. Told me they would refund me, reimburse me for a rental but in the end, they didn't reimburse me. Will never use them again.

I'm still a bit confused about why anyone would rent out their car via FlightCar when I normally see off-airport parking with a free shuttle costing between $5 - $15 per day with discounts when you do weeklong or more.

The "whatever" attitude of people when it comes to taking care of rentals would mean it's just way more trouble than it's worth for me to use. If you're staying for a month or longer, wouldn't it be much more economical to just take public transportation there or an Uber?

Because the traditional parking costs $5-15/day, while FlightCar may be paying you $5-15/day?

On a long trip, the difference could be hundreds of dollars in your favor – helping to cover your car/insurance payments while your car would otherwise be idle.

Except for you are not accounting for wear and tear on your car. Flightcar pays $0.05 per mile from SFO and says that the average daily mileage is less than 40. So let's say your car is rented for 40 miles a day, that's a whopping $2 you made. The biggest value comes from saving on parking which I think makes sense for some folks who might have to drive to the airport but I would think that anytime you are traveling more than a few days, a shuttle/uber/bus is a much better option.

I can believe there was a bad experience, but even without seeing FlightCar's response, this story doesn't completely cohere.

* The vanity-lights in the sun-visors shouldn't "short out" just from being "left open". (It might drain the battery, or shorten the life of the bulb... but simply being 'open' wouldn't/shouldn't cause damage.) The actual failure may have been due to lifetime wear & tear, or perhaps even atypical use prior to the rental period... in which case FlightCar's responsibility is murky.

* The VW dealer price for repair is insane. Yet even though customer is displeased at FlightCar having slightly overestimated the radiator/themostat fix cost (by $200), customer expects FlightCar to cheerfully accept highest-possible cost for his own reimbursement.

Doing what this customer seems to want – generous reimbursement for something that isn't indisputably related to the incremental use during the rental period – might not be tenable for the business even if everyone was acting in good faith. And if FlightCar had a reputation for generous reimbursements, it would also attract people acting in bad faith: blaming FlightCar for preexisting issues that could be snuck by the check-in/check-out inspections.

The difficulty of tracking and resolving such issues may be a fatal flaw in the FlightCar business model.

Can't respond to your first point as I don't really know, but I've only used those lights about three times in the lifetime of the car, so wear and tear is a hard thing to state. Proving anything is anyone's fault is an issue whenever insurance is involved, and generally comes down to trusting someone's word.

I definitely would take the car to another shop to get fixed, and the FlightCar rep knew this. The disagreement was not over price, it was over whether they'd cover repair at all.

I, too, have a VW with such visor lights, and I, too, have probably used them less than once per year in the last 7 years.

So if a friend borrowed my car and (somehow, improbably) 'broke' them somehow... I might not notice for months.

Are you sure they were working when you dropped the car at FlightCar? (Was one of the 3 times in 10 years that you used the visor-lights that same day, or was checking both part of the explicit check-in inspection?)

The last time I used them was earlier this year, around February. I opened the visor before and after the trip (but not slid out the visor lights), to put a garage clicker on it. The light was definitely not open.

FYI: In my 2009 VW Tiguan, you don't have to slide the cover shut to turn off the light. The light will also go off when the visor moves back up.

So I can easily believe – and in fact now think it's the most likely explanation – that the renter slid the cover open and the light didn't come on. Without the light on, there's no reason to even think the slider should be closed. Someone unfamiliar with this mechanism might not even realize that when everything is working, the slider works as an on/off switch.

afaik that's not how it works in the 2006 Pasaat, you have to actually shut the mirror door or it stays on, even if the car is off. The service rep said this was fixed in later models.

Previously in FlightCar: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5526655 (I just remembered this because I recalled commenting - was it really 958 days ago??)

Well, seeing as it's only been 958 days since they promised improved customer service, we should really cut them some slack here..

I can sympathize with your frustration, but it sounds like your car was on the cusp of all sorts of trouble when you left it with FlightCar.

I don't know their policies, but if I was the person renting your car - I would have been extremely frustrated that FlightCar even accepted your vehicle into their renting pool.

I do hope it all works out well for you though - and your story has successfully discouraged me from leaving my car with any such service.

Agreed, the car's radiator was definitely not happy. FlightCar's policies are that they don't check or guarantee the condition of cars, which is a bit ridiculous. Kind of like AirBnb but for a hunk of metal that can go 100mph.

For reference, it's a 10-year-old Pasaat with 65k miles on it. I expect big repairs every once in a while, but some of this was actual damage.

The news to me here is that if you leave the visors down on a VW it could cost you $1500. That's awful UX/engineering.

I think there's a lot left unsaid here. It's a short Facebook post, and the author doesn't seem to be particularly well-versed when it comes to cars.

It's not that short. If he's trying to rile up internet anger against Flightcar he needs to be forthcoming with what really happened.

I've got a VW Golf and I don't know what 'visors' are. Could you explain?

The sun-visors, the thing you pull down to shade your eyes. The VW has a vanity light in it that you activate with a slider over the little mirror. I'm not quite sure what exactly would cost $1500 to fix (it's just a light...).

Looks like it'd cost you $650 for that, San Francisco retail price. Agreed.

We need a more pedestrian friendly world. And more pedestrians. People are letting their legs go underused, not caring how it is killing them, then worrying how they can monetize all their consumer purchases. Cuz: "Logic."

The world has basically lost its mind.

People don't use their legs because most people can't afford to live near their place of employment. It's hardly just people being lazy.

The average travel time to work in the USA is 25 minutes. That's in a car.

And I'm saying this as someone who walks to work. I'm aware of how lucky I am.

http://project.wnyc.org/commute-times-us/embed.html#5.00/42....

Yeah, there is a reason that my first assertion was we need a more pedestrian friendly world.

Before life got in the way, I wanted to be an urban planner. So I am not just making stupid comments off the cuff. I have thought about the problem space and studied it some, formally even. Plus gave up my own car some years ago.

Better public transit would help. We don't need to walk the entire way to have a pedestrian life. We just need to be able to get there without a car.

> I took the car to a mechanic, who told me that it was impossible to tell whether the thermostat is broken without replacing the radiator first, even though FlightCar had wanted to fix both

This makes no sense. Replacing the thermostat in most cars is a matter of a $10 part and 15 minutes. You need a pair of pliers and a ratchet.

Meanwhile, the only reasons a radiator would warrant replacement would be extreme buildup (indicative of much bigger issues, like a blown head gasket) or a puncture.

What I don't get is why visor lights would cost so much and why would they short out because they were left on. This says as much about VW as it does about FlightCar.

Bummer about FlightCar.

For those asking, here's the breakdown of the costs:

Sun visor (x2): 238.78 + 78 service Coin drawer: 215.43 + 195 service New key: 272.60 Key programming: 97.50 Sales tax: 85

Total: 1499.19

Of course, this is an official VW dealer and this repair could probably be done more cheaply elsewhere, which I'd be happy to do. But the issue with FlightCar hasn't been about price, it's been about whether they are willing to cover these things at all.

My biggest concern with lending my car out to strangers is many insurance policies don't give the replacement value of the car if it's totaled. Typically to purchase an equal vehicle (based on year, mileage, condition), you would need to spend up to 10-20% more.

Although, I've seen a few car insurance polices offer "gap coverage" at a nice premium to make up for the difference.

Not my experience. I've had three cars totaled over the years and always gotten what I felt was a more than fair market value settlement. I've always carried major-name insurance which isn't the cheapest but have always been taken care of when I needed it.

People often get emotionally attached to their cars and are not realistic about what they are worth.

Edit: I can easily see an insurance co. refusing to pay for damages caused while you "rented out" your car, unless you are specifically insured for that.

always gotten what I felt was a more than fair market value settlement

Yup. Me too, fortunately just one time.

I paid $20,000 for an Acura Integra. Five years later it was stolen. State Farm gave me over $16,000. I'd love for that to be a more regular occurrence (but not frequent enough that they'd cancel the policy).

Had a bad experience on the renting side including poor customer service and shoddy operations - can't even imagine renting my own car, just look at their Yelp reviews. One of those concepts I really wanted to be great, but just hasn't happened. Sorry you have to deal with this.

Lots of complaints about flightcar here in the comments but I'll just chime in that I had an excellent experience renting from them last time I was in SF.

It cost 3x less than any other rental company and I got a much bigger car and it was a hybrid to boot so I saved on gas!

Why would one think about doing this? Sounds like the dumbest idea ever.

Not if the insurance/support actually worked. I have nothing in my car. For me it's literally just a driving box. I'd be happy if it could be used when I wasn't using it, especially if that saved me 100+$ in parking fees.

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