The WTO rules against “dolphin-safe” labels on tuna
sierraclub.org
sierraclub.org
"Dolphins are a common by-catch in tuna fisheries, especially in the Eastern Tropical Pacific Ocean, as they commonly swim with schools of yellowfin tuna. The dolphins, who swim closer to the surface than tuna, may be used as an indicator of tuna presence. Labeling was originally intended to discourage fishing boats from netting dolphins with tuna.
The tuna fishery in the Eastern Tropical Pacific is the only fishery that deliberately targets, chases, and nets dolphins, resulting in estimates of 6-7million dolphins dying in tuna nets since the practice was introduced in the late 1950s, the largest directed kill of dolphins on Earth.[9] With the onset of the Dolphin Safe label program, started in the US in 1990 but soon spreading to foreign tuna operations, the deaths of dolphins has decreased considerably, with official counts, based on observer coverage, of around 1,000 dolphins per year.[9] However, research by the US National Marine Fisheries Service has shown that chasing the dolphins causes baby dolphins to fall behind the pod, resulting in a large "cryptic" kill, likely damaging populations of dolphins, as the young starve or are eaten by sharks while the main pod is held by the nets.[10][11] Thus, claims that tuna fishing can continue to chase and net dolphins and not cause harm are not backed by scientific research."
This is not a problem with random by-catch. The issue was the systematic netting of dolphin pods due to their close association with tuna.
> If you do the math on this (and you don’t have to because the Environmental Justice Foundation already did), you find that one saved dolphin costs 25,824 small tuna, 382 mahi-mahi, 188 wahoo, 82 yellowtail and other large fish, 27 sharks and rays, 1 billfish, 1,193 triggerfish and other small fish, and 0.06 sea turtles.
> You and I can argue about the relative value of dolphins vs. triggerfish all day, but the important take-home message here is that we are protecting animals that are not endangered at the expense of dozens of other species, and some of those other species are endangered.
The silver lining in this cloud is that the removal of the labels means that it is inappropriate for people concerned about dolphins or the marine environment in general to be eating tuna at all, though, sadly, I don't think that is going to happen as a result of this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/12/business/monsanto-sues-dai...
Hormones, btw, which are illegal in the EU.
a) making these illegal b) once forced to legalise, labelling it as such
I may be getting confused with another case, but I recall some trade episode as such
These numbers aren't consistent with the table, and the link doesn't seem to have the relevant data. According to the numbers in the table, a dolphin costs 138 mahi-mahi. The other numbers become similarly smaller, when comparable.
> You and I can argue about the relative value of dolphins vs. triggerfish all day, but the important take-home message here is that we are protecting animals that are not endangered at the expense of dozens of other species
If that's the important take-home message, it sounds like the writer has already made up his mind about the relative value of dolphins to other species. And it sounds like I disagree with him. I think dolphins are more intelligent than most species, and have more moral worth, and killing hundreds or thousands of other fish to save one dolphin sounds like a potentially good trade.
The writer seems to want to frame this as charismatic versus non-charismatic, but the fact remains that I care about dolphins more than other species, and I don't care that they aren't endangered.
(I'm mostly vegetarian, but even before that, I avoided tuna because I didn't know how much to trust the dolphin-safe label.)
> and some of those other species are endangered.
Which ones, specifically? Mahi-mahi and wahoo aren't, at least. The rest of that list seem to be broad categories with no single conservation status.
Is this a case of "we're protecting a single dolphin at the expense of lots of other non-endangered fish, and also 5% of an endangered turtle"?
The link has exactly the data it was supposed to have, and a citation to where it came from.
https://web.archive.org/web/20081110012913/http://www.ejfoun...
> The first thing that popped into your head was probably “ban tuna fishing”, which is a more politically correct way of saying “make it impossible for the world’s poor to have healthy balanced diets”. It’s just not feasible to ban purse seine fishing. If you’re interested in helping by “voting with your wallet”, you can support sustainably-caught tuna, which is caught with a rod and reel and has almost no bycatch, but this method makes tuna so much more expensive that it’s not a large-scale solution.
Most legumes have a pretty high carb-to-protein ratio, and are also incomplete proteins. (Also, there's probably no reasonable definition of sentience that includes all animals and excludes all plants.)
This is a red herring, based on misinformation about nutrition. It is not hard to fulfill your daily protein needs and get in all your essential amino acids and maintain a healthy calorie intake while eating a diet of legumes, grains, and vegetables. It can be done for a fraction of the price of a omnivore's diet and can be a lot better nutritionally than downing tuna every day (i.e., there's more opportunities for variety).
> there's probably no reasonable definition of sentience that includes all animals and excludes all plants.
There are a few, but it actually is largely irrelevant. If you stop eating animals you also consume less plants. Every time you eat an animal you have to consider that in order to raise that animal it had to eat a lot of plants that you could've been eating instead. Raising animals is massively inefficient energy-wise, which is why our plant consumption goes down when people stop eating meat.
So really there's no need to draw a "sentience line" in the sand. Assuming everything is sentient, vegetarian diets are better for both plants and animals. But even if it were necessary to draw this sort of line, it would make a fair deal of sense to say that anything without a nervous system is at least relatively less likely to be sentient. There are some arguments for plant sentience due to their limited molecular signalling responses to harmful stimuli, but there is definitely a lot less evidence to support that hypothesis than there is to support the hypothesis that tuna are sentient.
>> The reason for the bean/grain combo is nutrition and protein. When you combine beans and grains, their different amino acid makeups form to combine complete proteins. They also each contain different nutrients and grains are higher in calories. There's a reason that some grain was always the staple of the local diet, whether wheat, barley, rice, corn or whatever. "Bread is the staff of life."
>> You'll live better on a bean/grain combo than just beans along. Ask the native Americans.
from _MikeK_, via http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=181260
Also..
>> Every time legumes like beans, lentils, and peanuts are combined with grains like wheat, rice, and corn, a complete protein is born.
from http://greatist.com/health/complete-vegetarian-proteins
I would also not suggest canned tuna as a staple protein, because of its high mercury levels. It's okay to eat occasionally, but eating ~10 cans/week as your main source of protein isn't a good idea. The safe consumption quantity for a typical adult is in the range of 2-3 cans per week of chunk-light, or 1 can/week of albacore.
Tuna -- 26.4g protein for 0.55GBP (48g/GBP): http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=283723541
Salmon -- 84.8g for 1.80GBP (47g/GBP): http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=258098027
And the salmon is from Alaska, where the fishery is well managed and sustainable.
a) is really surprising - someone above said that made tuna much more expensive, which is also what I'd intuitively expect;
b) seems to put it ethically around the same level as the salmon.
0: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/1... 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9699993 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10603067 3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10524582
This is not true necessarily. More tuna mean less median fishes, and less median fishes eating mean more anchovies and small fishes alive, thus pound for pound, more food for humans. After the overfishing of tuna in europe anchovies collapsed almost at the same time.
Also, we consistently overprotect one not endangered animal (humans) at the expense of all other species.
This isn't even true. Environmentalists in rich countries have managed to get lions and tigers (and probably crocodiles, but I can't affirm that from personal knowledge) protected despite the objections of the humans living nearby who hate being eaten.
Interesting claim. How do hippos know about the affairs of all other species, let alone the hippos in the next valley? I think you're overanthropomorphising.
We can't be absolutely sure that anyone except for ourselves suffer (not even other humans) because of the other minds problem, but essentially all the scientific evidence we have suggests that humans and other creatures are sentient if they have basic nervous systems and begin to display behaviors consistent with suffering.
Some of my sources: Studied neuro and cog sci myself, just chatted last night with a PhD candidate in neuro who agrees with me, have taken classes with the former longstanding editor of Brain and Behavioral Science who I believe would also agree. There are cog sci journals out there dedicated to this stuff.
I subscribe to a train of thought that says it's wrong to kill a person; it's okay to kill a cow, but wrong to torture one; and I'm not sure if anything done to a mosquito could count as torture. I think dolphins are around the same level as humans. I think tuna and many other fish are probably between cows and mosquitos, closer to cows, but I haven't read or thought about that one very hard.
Whatever it is that separates cows from humans, also seems to separate cows from dolphins. It's not sentience, according to your definition of the word, but it's what lmm was talking about.
Consciousness is poorly defined, so I don't know exactly what you're getting at there, but one definition is sentience. At any rate, I believe it's fair to say that a sentient being can be described as conscious due to their ability to feel and subjectively process experiences.
Why does consciousness matter if you believe they are sentient? Are you perhaps conflating intelligence with consciousness? Do you believe that it matters more when an intelligent animal suffers than it does when a less intelligent animal suffers? Why? Do they not both suffer? Can the same be said for people with low IQs? Their suffering matters less than mine?
How do you reconcile that slaughterhouse conditions are torturous, even the ones that "ethical farmers" use? That we have video footage that indicate the animals know they are going to die and evidence to suggest the entire process is distressing and painful? That the process by which they are "humanely" anaesthetized/killed (e.g., bolt gun) is still by far not the most humane way to kill animals?
How about the fact we have every reason to believe pigs are incredibly intelligent despite the way we treat them (I'm talking Chimpanzee-level intelligence here — http://animalstudiesrepository.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...)? What is this "thing" you believe separates them from dolphins?
Are you sure you are not simply working off of your own unchallenged beliefs that you were raised with by your parents and taking those as ground truth?
As such, I'm going to reply, but then I'm done. You're irritating, and I'm not interested in having a prolonged discussion with you.
I'm not conflating consciousness with the ability to suffer, or with intelligence. I don't know exactly what it is. But far as I understand, humans and dolphins and some other species seem to be aware of their own existence, in a way that cows aren't. (The mirror test is one tool we use to try to judge this.) Humans and dolphins are capable of wanting not to die, in a way that cows aren't. That's what makes it wrong to kill humans and dolphins. Meanwhile, humans and dolphins and cows are capable of suffering, in a way that rocks and (I assume) mosquitos aren't. That's what makes it wrong to torture a human or dolphin or cow, and impossible to torture a rock or mosquito.
> How do you reconcile that slaughterhouse conditions are torturous
Reconcile with what? I specifically said it's wrong to torture a cow. I don't like slaughterhouses. I'm mostly vegetarian.
I didn't say anything about pigs, because I don't know where I'd place them. My understanding is that they seem to be somewhere between cows and dolphins, probably closer to cows.
Moral worth is the function you run inside your head that says you prefer to let a thousand earthworms die to save one dolphin.
Hope this helps.
Here is a pdf of the case: https://docs.wto.org/dol2fe/Pages/FE_Search/DDFDocuments/225...
The world is not binary. I don't come here to read comments like yours.
The label is binary (insofar as it is applied or not to a product). The questions are about who determines what "safe" means and where. Your solipsistic attempt to frame his comment as an argument (that some comment might shut down all future debate!), which is never made, is trolling. I don't come here to read comments like yours.
I am not sure why there just can't be a rule to make all tuna dolphin safe. The animal industry practices in many countries around the world are just horrific. Shark fin soup for instance, Halal butchering practices, tuna fishing. Dog farming in Korea (where they often blowtorch the fur and kill the animal by dipping it, alive and conscious into vats of boiling water; the fear and adrenaline, they say, positively favors the meat.)
Yet we have a big conference in Paris about human CO2 emissions (which have a negligible effect on the climate, but a huge effect on the world economy), but never seem to have any international cooperation on environmental issues that can actually be solved: the treatment of animals within industrial processes. It's almost as if countries don't actually care about the actual environment but instead want to enact "environmental" policies that actually serve to redistribute wealth instead of making a quantifiable difference in the ecosystem.
Former U.S. Senator Timothy Wirth (D-CO), then representing the Clinton-Gore administration as U.S undersecretary of state for global issues, addressing the Rio Climate Summit audience, agreed: “We have got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic policy.."
I say we should be aggressively campaigning for things like dolphin safe, cage free, etc, instead of trying to advance the religion of global warming. I mention this because te Sierra Club used to actually be on the leading edge about these sorts of issues but around the early 1990s started getting infiltrated by the climate warrior crowd.
I am not defending TPP at all, but this ruling has nothing to do with it. It seems like a bit of a propaganda ploy to connect the two. Will saying no to TPP undo this ruling? Nope.
> The WTO decided the label violated WTO rules slated for replication in the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), [...] The ruling shows how so-called “trade” rules go far beyond trade and interfere with environmental policies that protect wildlife.
So basically, it's saying that if you think this WTO ruling is bad, you should think the TPP is even worse, because among all the other bad stuff in the TPP, it also will enforce anti-informed-consumer anti-environmental decisions like this.
But! The WTO decision doesn't even address this issue. Voluntary dolphin-safety labeling is fine with everyone ("asbestos free!") and doesn't concern them here. What they've just ruled on is US law that prohibits the sale of dolphin-associated tuna. There are no informed-consumer issues implicated.
So, while you've characterized the ruling as "anti-informed-consumer [and] anti-environmental", I don't see that it actually is either one.
EDIT:
From reading the WTO ruling, I appear to have badly mischaracterized it. Prohibitions on dolphin-unsafe tuna do exist in the US, but the WTO ruling states that, as concerns it, "The original tuna measure did not make the use of a dolphin-safe label obligatory for the importation or sale of tuna products in the United States, although the preferences of retailers and consumers are such that the dolphin-safe label has 'significant commercial value', and access to that label constitutes an 'advantage' on the US market for tuna products." This "advantage" appears to be what is at issue.
In an earlier report (linked from the Sierra Club article, http://sitemaker.umich.edu/drwcasebook/files/tuna-dolphin_i.... ), I read that "Section 101(a)(2) of the MMPA also states that 'The Secretary of Treasury shall ban the importation of commercial fish or products from fish which have been caught with commercial fishing technology which results in the incidental kill or incidental serious injury of ocean mammals in excess of United States standards'. This prohibition is mandatory."
The easiest way I see to reconcile those is to note that section 101(a)(2) of the MMPA is not part of the "original tuna measure" that Mexico challenged (they challenged section 1385). However, I don't feel like opining any further; this is a rat's nest. :(
Whether consumers are stupid or not isn't even remotely relevant.
A) Every single species of tiger is at least IUCN Endangered, and many are Critically Endangered, or Extinct. [1]
B) Whereas tuna species have a spectrum of IUCN ratings from Least Concern to Critically Endangered, with "Near Threatened" looking like the mean, and with no extinction of any tuna species witnessed yet in documented human history.[2]
C) Tuna are high predators, but are rarely apex predators like tigers. (For example, predators of albacore: [3][4])
D) I can only find one example of tuna extirpation: the North Atlantic Bluefish.[5] Whereas tiger territories have diminished 93%.[2]
1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuna#True_tuna_species
2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger#Subspecies
3 http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/2011/bularz_noah/interactions...
4 https://swfsc.noaa.gov/textblock.aspx?ParentMenuId=136&id=11...
We're not meant to rule over nature, we're meant to be part of it. We are part of it. Damaging the capacity of the planet to support life will ultimately cause us problems, and that includes draining the oceans of its wildlife.
Don't ask me why I would want to rule. Perhaps I would like to rule over your mind to destroy this propensity for dumb questions to be asked of me. The world would be a better place for it.
Imagine someone is fascinated by seeing a butterfly moving between the plants in their garden. Does the person own the butterfly? Naturally, it has no allegiance to any person. Can they own the butterfly? The only ownership possible appears to result in the butterfly being held captive, either alive or dead. The captivity robs both the person and the butterfly, the butterfly is robbed of its freedom, and the person is robbed of the joy of seeing the butterfly live naturally, which is what they may have found fascinating in the first place.
This is a hard thing to explain, because it requires a different mindset. If someone is of the ownership mindset then it doesn't matter to them what existed before that ownership, or what happens after their ownership. However, with a less individualistic mindset, different values emerge. For example, is a tree worth more than the paper it can produce?
In a scenario where you use land to grow food, if you don't own the land you can't say you control it. How this that the case? You can state you control it without owning it, and use that land to grow food. However, that control only lasts if only one person has access to the land. If I decide to dig up all of your crops and use the land for my own use, then do you really have control of the land? No. Neither would I in this scenario, anyone could undo the changes I made as well.
Ownership enables exclusive control. When it comes to managing resources, there is no reliable control without exclusive control.
In other words, in this case, there's no point in making the distinction between ownership and control.
At that point, we can always eat each other and keep our population in control.
Also, cannibalism isn't particularly good for our health...
http://www.healthmap.org/site/diseasedaily/article/spotlight...
Compare http://www.southernfriedscience.com/?p=6539 (a marine biology blog), which I'll quote from at length:
> It can be difficult for people who have never seen it in action to appreciate the scale of modern commercial fisheries. Commercial fishermen aren’t out on the high seas with handheld rods and reels catching one fish at a time. The nets that tuna fishermen use, which are called purse seines, are miles long. With a net that size, it’s pretty much impossible to catch only tuna. Those nets also catch anything that happens to be swimming near the tuna. These unfortunate animals, killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, are called bycatch.
> There are three ways that tuna schools can be located. The first is to search for them directly using surface ships and small aircraft, which is inefficient, time-consuming, and not always effective (you can’t see tuna from the surface if they’re deep enough or if weather conditions aren’t ideal). The second is to attract tuna using floating objects, which we’ll discuss in more detail shortly. The third is to follow dolphins- for unknown reasons, dolphins in the Eastern Tropical Pacific are often found associated with schools of large tuna.
> Because finding dolphin-associated schools of tuna was extremely easy (unlike tuna, dolphins have to return to the surface where they are easy to spot), it was the preferred method for decades. The Eastern Tropical Pacific Tuna Fishery had a high rate of dolphin bycatch. According to NOAA’s Southwest Fisheries Service Center, an estimated six million dolphins were killed during the forty or so years that purse seining around dolphin-associated tuna schools took place. That’s approximately 150,000 dolphins per year, which is by far the largest cetacean bycatch of any fishery in history. However, it is important to note that mortality from being tuna bycatch did not mean that dolphins were endangered. The two primary species involved are spinner dolphins (data deficient) and spotted dolphins (least concern).
> A massive PR campaign led by the Earth Island Institute resulted in making it illegal to sell tuna caught from dolphin-associated schools in the United States. Dolphin-safe tuna was born.
> Now that fishermen could no longer use what was previously the most common method for catching tuna, they needed to change strategies. They turned to using floating objects (sometimes called FAD’s or fish aggregating devices) to attract tuna to a known location. One of the strangest known behaviors exhibited by open-ocean animals is their tendency to aggregate around any solid object that floats. This might have something to do with the fact that many open-ocean animals go their entire lives without seeing any sort of hard surface. This method is extremely effective for aggregating tuna, but it also aggregates many other species. Setting a purse seine around a dolphin-associated tuna school results in catching primarily large adult tuna (the target size because they have more meat per unit effort and because they have reproduced already) and dolphins (which are not endangered) . Setting a purse seine around a floating object results in all sorts of bycatch, including endangered sea turtles, open ocean shark species which are already in serious trouble, and high numbers of small tuna (which have not yet reproduced).
> A simple glance at the table above shows that while dolphins bycatch goes down, every other studied species (except “unidentified bony fishes”, “other sailfishes”, and marlins) has much higher bycatch rates in “floating object” tuna fishing than in “dolphin associated” tuna fishing. In other words, while better for dolphins, “dolphin-safe” tuna is disastrous for almost everything else.
> If you do the math on this (and you don’t have to because the Environmental Justice Foundation already did), you find that one saved dolphin costs 25,824 small tuna, 382 mahi-mahi, 188 wahoo, 82 yellowtail and other large fish, 27 sharks and rays, 1 billfish, 1,193 triggerfish and other small fish, and 0.06 sea turtles.
> Last summer, I went on NPR’s “The Pat Morrison Show” to discuss this issue with a representative from the Earth Island Institute, the organization most responsible for dolphin-safe tuna policies. I had expected him to acknowledge that the bycatch was a problem, but that it was still important to protect dolphins because they’re intelligent mammals (or something like that). Instead, he argued that there was no bycatch of endangered species taking place under dolphin safe tuna policies, and he accused me of perpetuating the propaganda of evil fishermen who “just want to kill dolphins”. Yikes.
> A conscious choice to go back to a previously-banned fishing method that kills large numbers of charismatic animals puts a bad taste in my mouth, but the fact is that fishing for dolphin-associated schools of tuna catches primarily non-endangered dolphins and adult tuna. Dolphin-safe tuna fishing is killing dozens of species, many of whom are endangered, and threatening the integrity of entire ecosystems.
Dolphin-safe tuna might be the most straightforward example in the world of political posturing for its own sake, in direct opposition to the avowed goals of the organizations that support it. And here's the Sierra Club decrying a step towards clawing it back.
I suspect this is correct but I do not share this sentiment, and in fact, I find it absurd. Most people only want to harm specifically raised and genetically modify living things for their entire miserable lives in captivity OR make sure that only a very select group of free living things is killed due to a narrow sense of cultural aesthetics.
I don't think we should rush out and needlessly murder dolphins, but the average person may notice that label, but removing it would likely have little to no bearing on consumer selection which is driven primarily by advertising.
What had an effect was that the US forbade tuna that didn't fulfill the dolphin-safe requirements. The label itself is incidental to that.
So you're discounting the advertising advantage of saying "We don't kill dolphins like the other guys"? That's strange. I'm old enough to remember when dolphin-safe tuna was a cause celeb. Advertising you were dolphin-safe had big time marketing push. I think even Charlie the Tuna got in on the act. For a more contemporary example, we can look at GMOs and "organic" food. There's no science saying that GMOs are dangerous or that "organic" food is healthier or safer, but that doesn't stop them from being a market differentiator that drives sales.
In these trade agreements, some countries are more equal than others. The US probably has the trade power to continue to ignore the WTO ruling. The US has done so repeatedly in the past with other issues.
To be honest I see no reason why the labeling is not permitted so as to allow more consumer choice. Origin and such are valuable tools for smart consumer purchasing. That they run afoul of what lax rules other countries want should not be a consideration.
What is next? Ruling that preference given to some foods based on their original origin will be tossed? It is the logical conclusion that many rules in the EU which do protect certain products will be ended too.