Is there a Belgium? (1999) | Hacker News Reader

Is there a Belgium? (1999)

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73 pointsatombender36 comments

I'm from Belgium and I left when I was 21, 15 years ago. As much as I love my country and will never deny the fact that I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for it, its laws and its freedom; I too am puzzled by it. The whole thing always felt like "here is a piece of land, no one really wants it, let's just make a country, and then divide it in half " (in thirds really, as Brussels thinks it's above it).

I love Belgium for not being France, not Holland and not Germany, but its identity is in constant crisis. For too long it's been trashed by the other countries. Its biggest demise is trying to compete with them, to be like them. Half the country pretend it's dutch, while most dutch can't understand them well. The other half pretends its french, but only for the good parts, and has a funny accent. And a large town thinks it's German (Eupen). Then in the center, you got this weird beast that is Brussels, that would like to pretend that it's more European than Belgian. These are my feelings and each to their own. But one thing is for sure, Belgium is defined by its dysfunctional history.

This culture I grew up in is unique. It's a melting pot of social laws, acceptance and embracing cultures. Sadly, it's been abused and walked over from every corner. If anything good came out of it, it's probably Europe. But that's arguable, because the Euro screwed everyone up.

> Sadly, it's been abused and walked over from every corner.

To be fair, Belgium has done its share of abusing (in which 10 million Africans were murdered and many more enslaved under Belgian imperialism): http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html

I think a lot of countries have unusual beginnings, various smaller territories getting stuck together. Hello Italy.

Belgium is both the cycling and trance capital of the world, 2 things so close to my heart, and I love it.

I was born in Belgium (to ex pat parents) and lived there until I was 18. I loved my time there, but it's definitely an odd place. The strife between the Walloons and Flemings (the roots of which stretch back a long time indeed), the large groups of ex pats working for multinational companies, the European Parliament, SHAPE and NATO.

Did wonders for my language skills having a steady stream of people to converse with in both French and Dutch though.

See also the 2007 political crisis where they went without successfully forming a new government following elections.

Despite being a young(ish) country, there's a wealth of culture from Adolf Sax, Hergé to Magritte and sporting icons such as Eddy Merckx.

For those who don't know the author, this essay is by the great, late British historian Tony Judt. He frequently wrote about post-war European history and, as a former Zionist, was a well-known and sometimes controversial critic of Israel.

For more of Judt's take on how the Flanders/Wallonia split has played out, here is an out-take from Judt's acclaimed survey Postwar:

http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2007/10/judt-on-belgian-iden...

Anyone at all interested in European history would enjoy his essays and this book. Deep and erudite, yet with an approachable narrative voice.

half-serious: is there ever a 'non-controversial' critic of anything?

Not to be pendant in, but it depends on what you mean by critic. Max Weber and Erich Fromm were critics of Marx and Freud who agreed with much of what they had to say. Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" is...well it's many things but it advocates rationality and a marriage of pure reason with experience. Ann Coulter is a critic of the Obama administration and liberalism in general.

I'm guessing most critics of Hitler are noncontroversial.

While true, in general use, calling someone a critic of XYZ tends to imply that there is a (mainstream) constituency that is not critical of XYZ.

Wow there's definitely material here for a board game - play the Socialists, the Catholics or the Liberals, vie for power, influence and wealth! Build your 'pillar' by coalescing local power into regional influence!

That's a great idea. "Belgium: The Board Game". Just be careful with the "Scandals & Corruption" expansion pack, it's pretty NSFW.

That could be the European expansion pack with Karel De Gucht for example ( tax fraud + european commissioner for trade), don't forget electrawinds, tecteo, ...

Not to nitpick, but, innocent until proven guilty? To accuse someone of tax fraud is morally repugnant, when both the facts and courts say otherwise. This isn't really a scandal, more of a personal matter (for him).

First of all: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_De_Gucht#Belastingontdui... ( dutch version) - here is more information then the censored english version.

And second, i "know" people who were pretty acquanted with the sale of the justice building in Furnes ( West - Flanders ), where Karel De Gucht was one of the so called secret investors and let's not forget who was closely involved with that: Yves Vanmaele.

There was a "documentary" on Terzake about him.. Where there is smoke, there is fire. But people who live nearby, see more smoke than others :)

It's hard to put in hard evidence, when politicians and judges shake hands and forgive each others sins without a trial. It's like bringing in kadhafi under the condition that he will be judged by his own friends ( to put it in the extreme).

I know personally 3 friends who's cases were influenced ( good or not) because of "Vanmaele" personally.

If you speak Dutch: http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/90071-integraal-de-gewraakte...

I hate to say this stuff above, because it sounds so conspiracy like. But it's more like a well known secret in the West-Flanders. Everyone here knows, but why would you take a risk, with something you have no business with and agains very "powerfull" / influential people. ( judges, politicians, Trade Commisioner of the EU)

Edit: I'm watching the video again, it's practicly everything i'm saying here (although i mostly forgot about the video )

(I am Belgian and speak dutch)

Oh, I'm not saying everything is above board. That I agree with. However, I do have several wealthy friends who have, unreasonably, been harassed by the fiscal administration on certain matters. A lot of it is fishing to see if they can find something that sticks.

From what I saw in the media (we obviously don't know the exact details):

1. He invested in a company, many years ago.

2. He sold his shares, with a capital gain, which generally is tax free in Belgium

3. Some civil servant decided he wanted to interpret the law differently (and tax him), and he tried to make it stick. As far as I know, he failed.

The problem with Belgian tax law is that it's full of "maybe's", "ifs", and obscure undefined terms. That creates ambiguity in different matters and different cases. Like everything in Belgium.. :)

He did not sell his shares the day before it insanely dropped. His wife and friends did, with presumeable insider trading secrets :)

I also have some wealthy friends, but they haven't been accused of that. None the less, Belgium is a lot of administration, i agree on that. And a lot of "you know me" politics also :)

I think you're mixing things up. One of those cases was "abuse of power" related (the one you're bringing up), and the other one (share sale described above) was tax related.

Burning money (Agusta scandal) is my favorite one.

The helicopters were not just more expensive, but in practice useless. When fully equipped, their operating range is IIRC ridiculous.

So basically a Belgian edition of "Die Macher" (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1/die-macher).

Though if one were in the mood for a more morbidly entertaining political game, a re-theme of Republic of Rome may be in order. It's also a game of up to six factions trying to be the most powerful at game end...but there's also a crisis every turn that if ignored can cause everyone to lose! You just need to replace "Hannibal at the gates" with some EU 2015 equivalent, and maybe have the "senator (+ legions) in my faction declares himself emperor" action be replaced with "Flemings/Walloons declare independence".

I'm from Belgium and even i think it's an awesome idea :p

No, no! It is at least a six player game. You have Wallonian socialists and Flemish socialists, Wallonian Catholics and Flemish Catholics, etc.

And expert players can choose to play for a German-language version of one of those. Those parties can only achieve something by carefully maintaining the balance of power.

You would probably love Victoria 2. It's a computer game, not a board game, but a large part of the gameplay involves balancing various factions in your parliament and your population. You can easily pick a pet party and try to help them succeed.

Playing that game as the Ottoman Empire was hugely enlightening. Surrounded on all sides by potential enemies, a barely coherent population, not enough resources, and a million miles from industrialization. Whee!

It has to be added that a significant amount of "pillarisation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation was the norm, not an exception, across western Europe in the nineteenth century. Usually it was either a Catholic and a Protestant pillar, or a Catholic and a liberal or socialist one, or some combination. A lot of it blew away around the 'Sixties, but significant amounts remain. It wasn't and isn't unheard of in the US either, viz. for example the HBCUs or the Evangelical parallel universe.

Note also the 500 downvotes. ;)

As long as we're on about Belgium, here's what Baudelaire had to say: http://harpers.org/archive/2014/08/brussels-spleen/.

But it's more Baudelaire than Belgium.

Thanks. Judt actually mentions, and quotes from, Baudelaire several times in his essay.

Made me think of the old classic "Belgium Doesn't Exist!" or "Land of Sprouts and Chocolate, I Think Not.":

http://zapatopi.net/belgium/

Perhaps it's entirely appropriate that the two most famous Belgians (in the English speaking world) are fictitious: Tintin and Hercule Poirot.

There won't be for much longer. No state can remain independent in the Eurozone. Its survival will require more integration and centralisation. Time will tell whether this applies for other EU members who don't use the Euro. Just quite what the separatists hope to get from independence, I don't know. They won't gain more sovereignty from it. Then there's the issue of the police state experiment that was run last night. People were persuaded to drop their free speech in exchange for cat pictures. By and large people seem to have fallen for it.

Belgium: Home of pedophiles, terrorists and wonderful strong beer.

Seriously, that is what I know about the country.

Add to that: world record holder of longest time to form a government. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Belgian_govern...

On the question of whether there is a Belgium in 2015, consider the adventures of Tintin in Molenbeek:

http://twitpic.com/9sbafs

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