Comment by 0xFFC | Hacker News Reader

Comment by 0xFFC | Hacker News Reader

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As Iranian (I am commenting from Tehran) I completely approve your point of view.I even explained in long comment in this post(you can find it in bottom).Iranian regime nightmare is liberal people( because they are the most effective opposition to current regime, all of other opposition's dismantled by regime very easily they don't even exist in society).

you know why? Because they are only threat to nature of this unbeatable regime(which have money manpower and religion).but west politicians keep ignoring this fact.Iran society is way ahead of its regime.Maybe far better than turkey in term of progressiveness And regime knows perfectly. Not Isis.not USA.not Israel.non of them is serious threat for them in long term.but a huge young population with secular believes is THE most threat for regime nature.people who use internet and spend time behind porn sites and don't give fuck about Islam is the most threat (and lose) for Iran regime.

You want change middle east . change their fucking -stupid- culture with internet, with porn.

From the perspective of a Western government, Iran's international relations are the problem.[1] The fact that Iran's society is relatively advanced does little to console the families of the 1100 American soldiers killed by Iranian proxies in Iraq; nor does it console the families of the hundreds (if not thousands) of Israeli civilians killed by (Iranian government supported) Hamas. State support for the Assad regime isn't helping the Iranian government's international reputation either.[2]

If you want to change the West's attitude towards Iran, a good first step would be to push for the release of Jason Rezaian, and the end of state support for terrorism.[3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terro...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_involvement_in_the_Syr...

[3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/pb/stories-jason-rezaian/

I think the US/Iran resentment goes back a bit further, roughly to the time that Iran took a whole pile of US hostages that were held for more than a year.

That's not the sort of thing that is easily forgotten and it is one of the cornerstones of West/Islam conflict.

After that it was mostly a downward spiral, with some recent relaxation on both sides of the line.

That's certainly a good point, but they can do little to change their history, other than plead for forgiveness, which the state is unlikely to do, as that is now part of their origin myth.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_myth

That was a while after we deposed their democratically elected leader.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

Yes, I'm aware of that. But for the US that was not a reason to hate Iran (then Persia). (Of course it may not have helped the other side of the balance)

> I think the US/Iran resentment goes back a bit further, roughly to the time that Iran took a whole pile of US hostages that were held for more than a year.

But that didn't happen in a vacuum either. The U.S. engineered or facilitated the overthrow of a mostly democratic Iranian leader in 1953, and put in his place a mini-dynasty of dictators who brutally oppresssed Iranians, with U.S. support, until that day in 1979. I'm not saying the Iranians should have taken those innocent Americans hostage but they didn't pick the American embassy and take hostages in a random act of violence.

... and I'm sure the 1953 coup didn't happen in a vacuum either.

I said 'US/Iran' resentment. The 'Iran/US' resentment dates back even further, and if you trace it all to its roots you end somewhere in the 1700's or so, but then it was still (mostly) the UK and not the US.

> I said 'US/Iran' resentment

If you mean "US/Iran resentment" means "US resentment of Iran but not Iranian resentment of the US", I now understand what you intended. Unfortunately, your syntax is undocumented and not defined in the language standard. :)

Also, the overthrow of Mossadegh was fundamentally about communism. Eisenhower featured that Mossadegh's policies would lead Iran towards communism. (The British were the ones who got that ball rolling; they wanted to depose Mossadegh for other reasons, mostly related to oil, but were not in a position to do anything with him.)

The US was also big time friend of the previous guy...

They all but installed him.

Or even further back to the time when CIA destroyed the democracy in Iran, and hasn't stopped interfering since ...

I approve your point , but you are not going to beat a regime which has effective - and clever - regional - and domestic - policy with a bunch of sanction. Iran and its proxies are fighting against USA.That is truth. But the question is how we can solve Iran -regime- problem? What is the solution ?

I personally believe there is no answer to this question other than Iran's own population.

You cannot believe me , but I can see with my own eye. Every time USA or international community interfere in something all people are suspicious and whole community turn to regime supporters (you may know , being against foreign powers in middle east is one of the effective way to stay in power , and Iran's supreme leader does this in extremely effective way).

If you want to fight you can only throw this regime with only academia and liberal people through a push for reform. There is no other alternative.They cleverly managed to stop and destroy every other opposition in country.Even parties which was more than 100 years old.

I will guarantee you other way of fighting against this regime is not effective and will not effective.You want military invasion ? hell no , they will harm your military very badly , they will turn Iran worse than Vietnam and Germany in second WW.Even after changing regime they will remain active force like Al-Quada , suicidal force in society, which can change or throw government very easily.

But the increasing liberal force in Iran want reform more than ever , they pushing even badly. I am not saying it is going to be successful.No , not yet, but I am saying it can be if west does not provoke people against reform and provide platform for free information flow (which is regime nightmare)

I'll bet way more than 1100 Iranian soldiers were killed by American proxies, umm I mean, allies in Iraq back when Hussein was a friend of America. So, call it even?

I think those are rationalizations for the larger reason: The U.S. and the West are the status quo powers; that is, we support the status quo power structure in the Mideast, with Sunnis and Saudi Arabia in particular dominating the Gulf and Arabian Peninsula. Iran is challenging that status quo.

Speaking generally, in any such situation the challengers appear to be behaving badly because they are disruptive - they have to disrupt the status quo to bring change. In the end, neither side necessarily has a more legitimate claim to power and both would do the same in the other's shoes.

I'm also not sure either side behaves better. Remember the U.S. played a major role in overthrowing a (mostly) democratic Iranian government in the 1950s, then supported a dictator who brutally oppressed the people of Iran for decades. The U.S. supports insurgent groups in and near Iran, sabotages their infrastructure (the nuclear program), imposes crippling economic sanctions, and very likely participated in the assassination of Iranian scientists. I happen to think the actions against Iran's nuclear weapons program are necessary, and Iran's government is generally a danger to many people's lives in the Mideast, but the West can hardly complain about Iran behaving badly. (And don't forget the U.S. misleading the world and invading a neighboring Mideast country for no good reason.)

> The fact that Iran's society is relatively advanced does little to console the families of the 1100 American soldiers

US killed a lot more of the American soldiers since. You make it seems like 1000 US soldiers' concerns somehow makes huge difference in the overall geopolitics. That is just propaganda.

Many of those solders were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan invasion. Others were sent home traumatized mentally and physically.

> soldiers killed by Iranian proxies in Iraq

In general mentioning "killing by proxy" and US in the same comment is not a good idea if it is supposed to support the US position. US has killed by proxy a lot more and supported brutal regimes and dictators for many decades on almost all continents.

There's also the Israel tail wagging the dog issue. Israel hates Iran so we hate Iran. Israel loves Sunni dictatorships in Egypt and Saudi Arabia so we love Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

I don't think Israel hates Iran or Iran hates Israel. Both, regardless of their differences, behave logically.

I believe they find in each other an enemy that helps with their narrative, without the detriment of having to deal with the danger of an erratic or unreasonable enemy.

> does little to console the families of the 1100 American soldiers killed by Iranian proxies in Iraq

Hang on... the USA sent armed forces 9,500 km across the globe to unilaterally invade a country literally across the border from Iran, and you reckon it's Iran's fault they were killed?

Of course Iran was going to take advantage of the situation. It's their backyard, the USA was thrashing around aimlessly and they saw an opportunity to achieve an objective to their benefit. After all they have to live beside the self-imploding remains of Iraq, they can't just climb into C-17s and say it's over.

>1100 American soldiers killed by Iranian proxies in Iraq

And how 'bout all the Iranian soldiers killed by our friend and alley, Saddam Hussein, during the Iran-Iraq war? We didn't even get upset at Saddam for the USS Stark incident!

Well, porn usually doesn't help much. How about proper education and teaching people to respect women and minorities?

Of course , I am using porn as notion, because it is such red line in Iran's(or broadly in Islamic) culture. It is the most - and first - effective attack to the stupid Islamic culture.Of course science is the best alternative. I just want show people the hardware -military,sanction, etc- is not answer . the best answer is software -culture,education,etc-.

Western countries are not interested in investing in Middle Eastern countries to achieve long term goals.

We all get free or almost free or cheap, decent education in Iran, how about you? how much university debt do you have?

no gift is ever free. that is the problem.

I fail to see the downside of a free education. The questions you might ask is what it is exactly that is being taught but in general a free education is a good thing.

"Since the act of accepting a gift can create a sense of unfulfilled obligation on the part of the receiver, gifts are sometimes refused, depending on the situation."

This notion from an etiquette guide to foreign culture I think is relevant.

No, this one does not apply for free gift of education, but it applies to any gift that have some sort of monetary value, because when you educate people you enlighten them and give them ability of understanding true value of what they are receiving too. so you are wrong again. you give a man fish you feed him for a day ( your case ), you teach him fishing, you feed him for life ( education case ).

you're incredibly overconfident. I'll leave it at that. good luck.

confidence comes from ability to recognize the facts from BS and fallacy.

that is freemium (looks free but is not), you are mixing it with genuine gift my dear.

Well I went to a paid university in Iran, the quality of education wasn't good either. Almost 1% of people get that "free" education you're talking about.

you went to paid university because you were not smart enough to get into free one, I went to free one, AmirKabir University of Technology and studied computer science for free. I like to know where did you get your 1% from?

Maybe you're right and I'm not smart enough. But 1% of 1.7 million students who went Konkoor the year I went to is still a lot more than capacity of all universities in Iran. So your statement is incorrect. We didn't "all" get free education

you even cannot read properly,no wonder you didn't get accepted in Concour (Concour is a french word, you can learn this one too), I wrote: "we all get free or almost free or very cheap", read again so you learn to read correctly and you can comment again. we were 5 kids in family and my father had very modest income, me and my brother went to free university and 3 of my sisters went to Azad university and my father was able to pay for tuition with his modest income however it was hard for him to pay sometimes, but he was able to pay. and we didn't end up with mountains of debt.

1. It's not decent education.

2. It's the same here in the U.S. With all the nagging cost of education is not that high. I'm paying for my wife college.

3. You are attacking me for no reason. Once you called me dumb. But you know how the entry exam works, it is certainly not the best system for pickup up the most talented people. I'm not saying I'm talented or anything but your basis of judgment is wrong

I will leave at here, I didn't call you dumb, you just may be didn't think enough, I looked at your submissions, it seems you are smart enough and had decent education ( i guess in iran ) :)

Nope, as I said Azad university sucks balls. I didn't finish school there. I came to the U.S., got some real education and started working for a company that you use it's products everyday. But it's not about me. I might be the dumbest person on planet

Back to your original point in which you suggested we have decent education for cheap of free in Iran. I still disagree with you. There is only a handful of schools (Sharif and maybe Tehran) with decent teachers and some decade old equipments, other than that most of schools in Iran are inefficient and I consider them a waste of time. Azad university is more like a religious school than an art and science college. So no, we don't have "free or cheap" "decent education" "for everyone". If we had we wouldn't have such terrible society. You went to a "decent" school and living in Canada. You're considered "elite" or counted in brain drain stats! Yet, you are attacking people on internet for no reason. That's why I'm saying we have a terrible society.

I didn't attack anyone, I only said you were not possibly smart enough to pass the entrance exam, I didn't pass it either on first attempt, I managed to get into decent school on second try. Azad wasn't very good university at first it was kinda like a high school at the beginning ( my high school use to be Azad branch in after hours !!!) , I have seen it grown since its inception, now is good enough on main branches in big cities, in terms of equipments even with sanctions we had good stuff, for sure not as Ivy league universities in US, but good. yes I am living in Canada, I also lived in 4 other countries and I am still proud of whatever my country provided for me, with education that I had in Iran, and my hard work today I work for one of top 3 software makers in world.I am by no means elite but may be in brain drain stats ;). since you are in US go to any decent US university's engineering department and see how many Iranian educated boys and girls study there, and how many of them actually finished their BS or MSc in Iran. here in Canada/Quebec in one of the universities 70% of Phd students are Iranian (official stat by university itself). they must have had decent education to get accepted for continuing higher education, i guess, what do you think?. for you information my wife also study Phd in McGill, she finished her Msc and BS in Iran. education in Iran is way more decent than many other countries and is cheap or free. today they don't have a big competition to get into universities as there many more seats available.we don't have terrible society we only have terrible individuals which could possibly include myself too. so let's fix ourselves first.

On HN, telling someone that they can't read properly or that they weren't smart enough to pass an exam do count as personal attacks. We ban accounts for doing this, so please don't do this again.

To be a good contributor to this site it's best to make sure you've read the following:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

I said he cannot read, because he didn't read, I will say it as long as someone reads my writings partially and not complete.I said he was not possibly smart enough as Iran's free university entrance exam was to the most degree IQ test ( at least in my days ) I failed myself for first time. you can go ahead and ban my account now.

You posted "you even cannot read properly" in a comment upthread.

We don't want to ban you! Your comments indicate a perspective that doesn't often show up here. Diverse perspectives are good for HN. But to participate effectively, you need to learn and follow the local conventions, and also understand that HN has rules, the foremost of which is civility.

I don't think you were intentionally uncivil. I do think you were unintentionally uncivil. That's nowhere near as bad, but still needs correcting.

did you see "Properly"? please re-read what I wrote and you quoted, otherwise I "might" think you unintentionally unable to read what I wrote, or unintentionally don't like to understand what I wrote, I don't like sweet talks, I prefer to be concise and direct. you don't know me, so you cannot judge my civility neither I can do yours. and you are not in a position of correcting me or anyone here, but you can express your opinion on someone's opinion and you are just a moderator (I guess), you seems like US government which is trying to "Correct" people who don't know ( by using force ) and have no intention of knowing them, you just use your "Civil Words" and threat of banning rather than trying to understand what I said. ( did I attack you too? I hope not, don't take it personally everyone needs a reminder sometimes, it could be me or you), feel free to ban me if my opinion hurts your level of civility. I have no intention of correcting you or anyone, peoples are uncorrectable until they realize (by education may be or facing the truth/consequences of their actions) themselves that they were wrong, then they might overcome their ignorance and mistakes, and that is very small possibility specially these days. :)

I feel like we may be running up against some language and cultural barriers here, and am happy to discuss further at hn@ycombinator.com if it would help clear things up. But you do have to follow the rules, like everyone else, when posting to HN.

good, next time before jumping in and using your gun (banning), try to read (re-read) and understand first as English is not universal mother tongue of everyone (including myself), and I generally follow the rules as they are necessary.

FYI, I didn't go to school in Canada, only in Iran.

Now that there are negative experiences on the consequences of overthrowing the regime in Iraq, Libya, Syria, it might unfortunately take a long time before the West will have courage to support a regime change in Iran.

Why would the West have to support such a change? It can only happen from within, just like that last time that Iran decided on Regime Change and showed they were perfectly capable of getting rid of their leader of the day (the Shah). Persia ceased to exist and Iran was born, much against the wish of the West and without any of its support (rather the opposite). I'm pretty sure that Iran can manage the next transition just fine. Though it may be a while. If we want to expand IS territory then by all means, let's mess in Irans internal affairs.

I always thought Iranians saw Islam as a tradition, not so much a defining aspect of their identity.

For a large and influential constituency in Iran, this is true. Iran is a very complex, multipolar environment, in contrast to the facile way it is generally presented as a monolith ruled in an absolutist way by mad mullahs or whatever. There are at least three significant camps in Iran.

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