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Comment by socialist_coder | Hacker News Reader

I feel like your comment and the article in question are completely anecdotal. Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code. You can't argue against that. But, that really means absolutely nothing to the big picture.

The real question is, what percentage of the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population can make the jump? I would agree with Bloomberg, it's probably fairly low.

But, I might not be fully recognizing the software engineering jobs from huge companies that are vastly less demanding than your typical SV "rock star developer" job. Maybe there is enough of a market there...

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Absolutely anecdotal. This article nor myself never stated that "the entire out-of-work blue collar worker population" can or even would want to make the jump. Many of these blue collar workers can move into other industries it just so happens that programming is becoming more of a trade skill than an engineering one. There is currently a demand for highly skilled CS engineers. However, the jobs that do not require CS skill sets per se, but rather require "coding" skills are becoming more abundant.

Really my "coding" skills have helped me in other areas opening my eyes in new ways to automating my skill set. One of the best testaments to this was talked about by Zed Shaw http://learncodethehardway.org/blog/MAY_15_2012.html Basically stating that programming is a supplement to other skill sets. The majority of these programming bootcamps/workshops are geared towards onramping rapidly to jobs that would not typically qualify as engineering positions. These jobs typically require whiteboard interviews, but once you actually get on the job your programming skill set is not nearly as utilized as it was during the interview. While I cannot quantify this supposition it would be really difficult to get a company to admit or supply data stating that they interview for rock stars, but have you do "janitorial" code work in reality.

Where the Bloomberg article most failed is stating that they "cannot" learn to code. Pretending that becoming a developer/engineer/coder requires some minimal level of IQ, even the IQ standard is hotly debated, is ridiculous. Just as any other skill set it just requires dedication and commitment.

> Really my "coding" skills have helped me in other areas opening my eyes in new ways to automating my skill set.

That is a good point. People who can program even a little bit have a pretty big advantage over people who can't. In knowledge worker jobs (and in our day to day lives, such as hobbies or DIY), there are plenty of tasks that could be done much easier and better if you know some programming.

> Where the Bloomberg article most failed is stating that they "cannot" learn to code.

Point taken.

I also think you might be overestimating the number of positions in Silicon Valley for groundbreaking programmers or developers. The "rock star" stereotype is pretty weak.

> Sure, a subset of miners can learn to code.

Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do

I agree with this for almost anything too. Yeah there's talent but if you're remotely creative at all, coding, drawing and making music can all be learned by doing.

>Anyone can learn to code, it isn't hard what we do. Granted some do push the boundaries, but that is a tiny % of what actual programmers do

Anyone?

I attended a selective prep school. Something like 99% of people there went on to university.

Certain students, who'd later finish say, medical school, and go on and be doctors, were completely unable to 'get' coding. Really basic stuff, some Pascal. Mostly women.

They treated it as 'magic'. Couldn't do anything on their own really, even though both teachers and boys tried to explain.

And here it was students at a selective preparatory school. Above average intelligence mostly, in a genetically privileged region(eastern Europe).

"Anyone"...

..sigh.

They failed because they thought it was magic and probably no one ever stopped to show them that it wasn't.

The skills necessary to be an average developer are pretty minimal. Basic math, literacy, organization, basic problem solving, patience and persistence. Communication helps but it's obviously not a requirement as you've displayed.

But can everyone get themselves out of the mindset that coding is magic?

>patience and persistence

A lot of people admin they dont have this

>The skills necessary to be an average developer are pretty minimal. Basic math, literacy, organization, basic problem solving, patience and persistence. Communication helps but it's obviously not a requirement as you've displayed.

I'm skeptical of this.

All of the things you say are things an average IQ person could have.

Are there any established developers with an IQ of 100? Possibly, but very few. IQ correlates very well with the ability to solve complex problems, which means there are few average IQ people who can solve such problems.

I'd bet it's pretty low, too. Even those less demanding BigCo jobs are often gated by a proxy IQ test in the form of coding challenges, and I'm not seeing any signs of those going away.

Even those less demanding BigCo jobs are often gated by a proxy IQ test

I'd be way of assuming that anybody working a blue-collar job has a low IQ. There are lots of reasons people take the jobs they take, and IQ is only one of those reasons. I would wager that there are a significant number of coal miners, plumbers, auto mechanics, etc. who are just as "smart" in the general sense as the average HN reader. I obviously don't know an exact percentage, but the stereotype that "blue collar == dumb" is definitely not valid as a generalization.

Sure, plenty are smart, or at least not dumb. But the difference doesn't even have to be so simple as smart/dumb. If your hiring pool consists of two distinct sources, one with an average IQ of 98 (i.e. not dumb), and the other an average IQ of 105, the second source will probably have more hires. Increase the difference (say, to a full standard deviation) and it's only worse for the lower group.

Why do you assume plumbers or electricians let's say have a lower average iq than programmers? Until ~10 years ago plumbers and electricians far outearned programmers.

The main assumption fell on coal miners. Plumbers and auto mechanics (and now electricians?) and other blue-collar work came up as a generalization, though I'd generally accept the same bet -- that is, there probably won't be much mobility in out-of-work individuals in those fields to software (and IQ-gating is just one of several reasons why that would be since admittedly some BigCo tasks could be done by someone with an IQ between 80-90 but those people will almost never get in the usual way because to invert a tree on a whiteboard or whatever stupid proxy is in fashion probably requires an IQ of >100). But the main reason I assume most of those fields have a lower average IQ is because I assume their job tasks are less cognitively complex in a technical sense than those of a software engineer and I've read https://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatte... Additionally an average programmer (maybe ignoring freelance web programmers?) has a CS degree and the average CS degree requires a certain level of rigorous math among other things that require above average intelligence to do well, whereas blue collar work typically requires nothing beyond a GED and sometimes various certifications or apprenticeships/training.

But why assume when we have data? Here's just one set. http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx If you find another that contradicts it please share.

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