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Comment by FlyingSnake | Hacker News Reader

I was working on H1-B for 6 years in the USA. The long wait time, and utter unpredictability of the Green Card system was insane. Being Indian didn't help either, as we are subjected to 12+ years of wait (EB3 quota). The stupid H4 laws made my highly qualified wife unable to work. Finally I kicked the plush job and American dreams and moved to Europe. My employer called me ungrateful and selfish for leaving after he spent $7k on my visa. I loved the USA but honestly life has never been better.

I'm sure there are few people on HN who want to keep immigrants out of the USA, but that's bad policy in the long run. I hope this debate around H1B will facilitate a better visa regime.

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A lot of people here a critical of the visa system because it drives wages down. This is an effect of employers having way too much leverage in the current system, the H1B being attached to your current employement. If you provide for equal rights between americans, permanent residents and non-immigrant workers, you cut that leverage out of employers' hands and empoyer non-immigrant workers to negociate market rate compensation. Work visas shouldn't be attached to current employement.

Switzerland, a country with 28% of foreign population, has a system where you can quit your job and claim unemployement benefits for at least 6 months before your work permit actually expires.

Having lived in both Switzerland and US I have to say that US is much more friendly towards the immigrants from non-EU countries. Swiss make it nearly impossible for people outside EU to get a permanent redidence permit (have to wait for 10 years for a C permit) whereas in US there are multiple paths (EB1-3, NIV) and a plethora of employers (tech companies in West and East coast at least) who would offer GC sponsorship as part of the deal.

Sure. But other EU countries are way more friendly. For example, Sweden I believe gives you a path to citizenship of close to 5 years. In the U.S., it would be > 5 years assuming non spousal green card.

Switzerland is the most unfriendly country for non-EU.

And the irony is that Switzerland isn't actually in the EU. However, they act like they are.

Switzerland is tied by many bilateral agreements with the EU. It's in their interest to adopt most of the EU legislation, so that they can do business smoothly with their neighbors, who are all EU members.

Hi!

I am currently on a student visa in the U.S. and was considering trying the H-1B route. However, since it is so tiresome and it literally can make you waste years of your life, I was thinking to not even bother. When I was doing research, most people say that the US is the best place to be at as a SE. This makes it sound like if you are doomed everywhere else. I am happy to see that you seem to be a counterexample to this. If you don't mind me asking, how "bad" is it really to be in Europe instead of US as a SE? Which country do you live in? People say pay is so much lower in Europe, but does it really affect you that much?

Thanks!

Europe is not that bad. Yes it is nice to earn $120k in Silicon Valley, but life is extremely expensive with $3500/m rent for a 1br apt. Get a job in my home town Amsterdam, earn $80k and spend only $1000 on an apartment. Uber moved its mobile engineering team there for a reason.

In general, the entrepreneurial scene is much smaller, but if you want to concentrate on SE Europe is fine.

Is $80k on the upper level? I mean, not rich, but is it enough to live comfortably? I know in some countries you are making as an SE as much as the baker in the neighborhood bakery!

> nice to earn $120k in Silicon Valley > $3500/m rent for a 1br apt

I think you are a bit off on both :)

Salary:

As a Software Engineer, chances are you can a bit more (especially including bonus + RSU). If you're "senior" you can earn quite a bit more.

Also: There are tons of other small perks that add up (phone/internet reimbursement, free food, public transport pass, free electric car charging, ...)

Rent:

You can currently get a 2 BR, 2 BR in Mountain View for about $3500 (managed newish building 2 minutes from Castro)

(Source: moved to Valley from Europe via Boston)

In San Francisco you need $4,225 for a 1br

http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-...

That's not true at all. Check out Craigslist. You can still find one-bedrooms for under $3K.

He talked about the median from Zillow. You are talking about the bottom decile 1-bed being hawked on Craigslist. Ask yourself, as a developer on six figures, would you want to live in the latter?

The bottom decile in SF is more like <$2,000/month. Or even <$1500.

$2500-$3000/month will get you a nice 1-bedroom in some of the more desirable neighborhoods.

I should know, I just spent a month finding one.

Don't give up yet on the F1 - H1B route. The H1B issues can depend on when you graduate. 2 years before I graduated H1B visas were not in short supply. Students graduated and opted to go on OPT first before filing for H1B so they wouldn't have to pay social security tax. The year after that, H1B visa applications were so high they had to do a lottery. This lottery happened for the next 3 years. 2 years after I graduated, the no of H1B applicants dropped back to the normal level that no lottery was required (I read in the papers that lots of foreigners opted to go back home because of the H1B issues and the bad economy). H1B application pool remained at that level for a few years and then went up again last year or the year before that.

So in summary, H1B applicant pool can vary from year to year so don't cross it off your list yet

Given the recent economic boom/bubble we're experiencing, chances of NOT being required to participate in the lottery are pretty low. Not zero, but pretty low.

Sounds good. I guess I can just try, since I will use OPT with STEM (maybe) anyway. Thanks!

> it literally can make you waste years of your life

Not sure why you would consider those years "wasted". You're working, gaining experience and making money. Since the job market is great, an H-1B isn't really something that would keep you back from negotiating your salary or anything else.

Getting the green card is a bit different, but there have been some reforms over the last few years.

I'd personally recommend it (having been on L-1B and H-1B).

Yes, you are right. Thanks! I was kind of depressed because of my slim chances, but with all these responses I certainly am looking differently at this situation.

The H1B chances are kinda slim. I'd personally recommend finding more than 1 employer willing to sponsor. Alternatively there is always the non-profit ones that are cap exempt.

Move to Toronto, pay is better than Europe and moving to the US from there is a step away.

Yeah, that's my backup plan! Thanks man

The people who say US is the best haven't seen the world. Europe and Canada has a fair share of brilliant SEs. The people I've worked with in Europe are not an ounce less talented than the US SEs and I feel much more productive here. Pay is lower, but honestly. I will take my social healthcare, 28 leave/year, unemployment insurance, kick-ass public transport, and well traveled multi-kulti friends over $200K in SFO living in a bubble.

If you're looking for options out of USA, I would seriously recommend Canada. It has a culture similar to the US, but better visa regime and healthcare.

And Europe life isn't bad either. I'm glad it works out for you. I'm considering similar option, maybe we should chat? :-)

Are you currently in the U.S.?

It's actually pretty easy. Just find a job and apply for Blue Card and you're all set. Lots of startups are sponsoring visa and desperate for talent. The visa regime is pretty humane compared to USA, and please learn the local language (A2 minimum) before moving :-)

How easy was the transition to EU? Are visa-required jobs advertised upfront.

I thought EU was way worse on Indians[regarding IT jobs]

To those people who want to keep immigrants out of the USA-- unless you're pure blood native american you're an immigrant.

Plus, what gives any people- including the government- the right to interfere with Freedom of Association.

Like Gay Marriage, the right to hire whome you want is an exercise of this basic right.

Alas, there wasn't an amendment to the Bill of Rights (though there doesn't need to be, read the preamble) to support freedom of association, and so this right has been eroded over time.

Immigration restrictions are government interfering with the economy, and in a bad way.

All immigrants benefit a country (unless you have a rickety socialist country in which case some of them may tax the welfare system-- but if its not rickety the ones who come to work will pay for the ones who don't.)

Can you spare us the pontification? My issue with H1s is when employees that are clearly qualified are fired and forced to train cheaper replacement. H1 is about filing shortages not about helping Disney save money.

The same crowd that supports unlimited immigration, ironically oppose free trade. If it's ok to let in $60,000 engineers because there is a shortage of professionals willing to work for $60,000, why is it not ok to let in tarrif-free cars because people don't want to spend $20k on a Chevy?

There is no shortage of software devs. There is a shortage of software devs willing to work for $60k. The H1 system ought to be for exceptional cases such as a data scientist proficient in R, Haskel and Ruby which experience on mobile API design. It shouldn't be for effectively entry or mid level work. Many of the Infosys and Tata engineers with whom I have worked have been reasonably competent, but far from spectacular and some have been downright dangerously incompetent. Not a single one has been a field-leading expert.

Someone mentioned about what if plumbers were the primary recipient of H1s.. That would be interesting because it would expose the scam that is the enterprise-level H1 system.

It's about cheap labor (generally) and not about some imagined shortage of people. Honestly, outsourcing firms ought to be excluded from H1 eligibility; only primary employers should be allowed to apply. The program should also have more oversight. For example, you claim you can't find an engineer that can work in C and interact with SOAP APIs. Before your H1 request is allowed to proceed, the government (or quasi-government) should then be allowed to send you US resident prospects that meet your requirements. If there are none, then you get the H1 application processed. Essentially affirmative action for US citizens and resident. If you are unwilling to hire the employee, you would need to justify why. Salary discussions would be forbidden until after you make a hiring decision. If you say yes but the salary is too high, then there would be kind of an arbitration system.

My point is that H1 is about lower cost most of the time and has little to do with an actual shortage.

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