Ask HN: How to form deep friendships later in life? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How to form deep friendships later in life?

145 pointsthepredestrian81 comments

About 7 years ago I arrived in Canada from Southeast Asia to pursue a degree in Computer Science. I graduated and landed a decent job right after in the US, and have been working here since.

I have made many efforts to go out and meet new people, but unfortunately at this age it gets harder and harder to form deep and meaningful connections or friendships. Everyone already has their own childhood friends, family, support group that they have built themselves around their whole lives and grew up with. To them, I am just another 'colleague' or 'fellow member of X and Y group', and I know our friendships will never go past a certain level.

I walk past bars and cafes on Friday nights and I see groups of young adults in merry conversation and laughter. They are most probably friends since childhood / high school and I know I will never be a part of a group like that, because it is just too hard to break into a clique that already has formed a common connection amongst themselves, and the 'making friends' phase is over.

How do I overcome this sense of loneliness and dismality?

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- Meet people through work. You have to kinda treat this a bit like dating, and make real effort - when you meet someone you get on with, you'll need to invite them for coffee etc. Do this sooner rather than later. Go to social events that are loosely related to your work.

- Activity groups. Meetup.com, Couchsurfing, Nightclasses. Charities and volunteering.

- Become a regular at a bar or a cafe. Go there frequently, even if on your own to read a paper at the weekend or one evening. Get to know the staff, as that provides a bridge to knowing other regulars.

- When you do go out for any reason, be open to talking to people. Get into the habit of it, and if you encounter good conversations be sure to get the person's twitter/facebook/phone/email, just look for an excuse to send them something that you're both interested in. Then if you get a good chat going, look for an opportunity to meet up.

- Explore the friendship networks of the friends you already have. When you go to events with existing friends, make sure you get to know the people they bring along. There's a much higher chance of liking a friend-of-a-friend rather than a random stranger.

- Send social signals about the kind of person you are. e.g. wearing a SpaceX T-Shirt will definitely attract other space geeks for chat in random bars/cafes.

- More philosophically: remember that whilst you might not meet good friends if you go to the cafe this Saturday, you certainly won't meet them if you don't socialise at all. And it takes time - for every night or day you socialise, you probably won't meet anyone interesting about 80% of the time.

To the first point, I think this might be controversial... but try to avoid people you work with directly. It seems like it's better at first glance - b/c you interact with them more - but the reality is there are whole layers of professionalism and competing interests between you and them which actually kinda preclude you from building a system of mutual trust.

Maybe "trust" isn't quite the right word, but I'm struggling to find a better one. The difference between an acquaintance and a friend is that you can implicitly know they will help you and that you will help them. This involves being willing to do thing while expecting nothing in return. In a work setting that usually leads to bitterness

But that's just like my opinion man...

This seems right to me in general, although there has been exceptions in my case. I think for better or worse alcohol can be the social catalyst that knocks down those barriers. But yes in general there are competing interests and people have their guards up. I think ex-colleagues can become good friends more easily.

It's pretty situation dependant. Mostly depends on the corporate structure, culture and your positions relative to each other. I've been blessed to work at small companies where most of the people I rub shoulders with aren't in the same professional 'track' as me, so there's no real reason for anyone to use a friendship to jockey for position or something.

> Meet people through work.

yes but not only. It is a dangerous trap to rely on your colleagues for a social life. First they'll always have to be your colleagues, second they're probably the same kind of people as you (where's the diversity), ...

> You have to kinda treat this a bit like dating

Completely agree with that. And as I said in another comment, looking for friends is kind of looking for a girlfriend.

> Couchsurfing

That's actually a good idea, they regularly meet up. I've heard bad things about reddit meet up so I've never tried but why not?

> Become a regular at a bar or a cafe.

I don't really understand this advice but why not. Become part of your neighborhood is maybe what you wanted to say?

> When you go to events with existing friends, make sure you get to know the people they bring along

That's super important. Because you tend to stick with your friends where you have the opportunity of making other good friends as well

> There's a much higher chance of liking a friend-of-a-friend rather than a random stranger.

Same for dating

> Send social signals about the kind of person you are

Odd. I would rather not and listen to what interesting things people have to say. You don't always have an obvious common thing.

> or every night or day you socialise, you probably won't meet anyone interesting about 80% of the time.

A friend of mine used to say (he was talking about girls but it works as well). If you meet a person and she's not the right one, don't discard her, the right one might still be one of her friends.

The idea can be generalized as: people are not always the perfect fit, but you can still hang out with them and meet some cool people in the process.

> First they'll always have to be your colleagues

Not after you or they left the job.

> second they're probably the same kind of people as you

The diversity is huge already within departments and limitless across.

> Completely agree with that. And as I said in another comment, looking for friends is kind of looking for a girlfriend.

Actually ... it's not at all like that. At least my dating behaviour is for good reasons very different from dealing with guys.

>> Couchsurfing > That's actually a good idea, they regularly meet up.

I have plenty of CS experience and from what I can say - you meet plenty of awesome people through CS - but the relationship-dynamics are exceptionally casual and noncommittal.

>> There's a much higher chance of liking a friend-of-a-friend rather than a random stranger. > Same for dating

Actually - even though this statement seems plausible - I highly doubt it is correct in practice and it isn't as far as I am concerned. It seems rather that people tend to trust more easily and deal more openly with friends of friends.

> If you meet a person and she's not the right one, don't discard her,

To think of "discarding" in that context is stupid in the first place. You can and should discard aholes - anybody else it's just a very dynamic process of distance and closeness which comes to a natural halt at some point.

> The idea can be generalized as: people are not always the perfect fit, but you can still hang out with them and meet some cool people in the process.

Fairly egocentric way of dealing with people - I suppose it's possible to enjoy time with people for what they are without aiming at capitalizing on their relations.

This is good advice for meeting people, but acquaintances don't automatically become friends. For that, you need to spend time with them in diverse contexts. The more, the better.

Someone you only see at work is a coworker. Someone you only drink with is a drinking buddy. If you work together, go out drinking on weekends, and play racquetball every Thursday night, the line starts getting blurred.

I like the analogy between G+ circles and friendship. A person can become your friend if he is in more than one your circle. Let's say you have a circle called "work" and you invite somebody from it to play football together. If he accepts, the transition happens.

A person that you work with is a coworker, a person that you play football regularly with is just a teammate, but combined they become a friend.

Drink.

Alcohol (and possibly other recreational drugs) binds and cements friendships. After a few drinks, people are more open to talking about themselves in a more honest way and tend to reveal more of the person that they really are, rather than the person they present to the world in normal, sober life; as the old phrase 'In vino veritas' attests.

Note that I'm not advocating or encouraging alcoholism here; I'm talking about two or three sessions a week with a select few people that you want to foster a deeper relationship with. Also, friendships (as opposed to drinking buddies) are based on more than just alcohol. Friendships are ultimately about trust.

I think the best way to meet new people when you feel like an outsider is to find other outsiders. By that I mean people who are also trying to fit in and meet make connections. Find things that you like doing that are welcoming to people who may not necessarily be in a group/family etc.

When it comes to making friends you also have to decide what types of friendships/relationships you want. Some people need only one or two close friends or a partner, and outside of their other hobbies, they are fulfilled. On the other hand, others prefer to have large numbers of acquaintances and be a part of a few social circles. There's overlap between the two types, but knowing what you want from your relationships will help you position yourself better to find what it is you want.

I'm 31 now, and I think there is always the possibility of meeting new people. Things happen in life, and people's situations and perspective's change. The friends that suit us at one stage of life may not suit us at another stage of life, so naturally we seek out other people. A partner that continually decides to grow and change with you is the exception to this, but we're always moving from stage to stage.

Friendships form when you repeatedly interact with the same person. This is not likely to happen at a random bar, but it most definitely can happen in a cooking class, when volunteering, playing music with people in a band, routinely getting together every Thursday night with others in your local makerspace and so on. Especially if you have to actually work together: perhaps offer your help to a local cause you support, perhaps a CoderDojo?

Also, FWIW, very few adults still know their childhood and high school friends and most people gradually lose the friends they make in college. It's just what happens, and while it will be harder for you to form new friendships, we all have to work at it. I don't know anybody who'd say "alright, I now have all the friends I desire, I hereby declare a ban on new friendships."

Maybe not an explicit 'I hereby declare a ban on all friendships', but in my experience, I find it hard to draw close to someone simply by virtue of the fact that we did not form our friendship early in life. No matter how much I hang out with someone, his childhood friends whom he grew up with will always take 'precedence' - I will never be that 'close friend who people can be comfortable sharing their personal lives with'.

Come to Japan and hang out with me? :-) It's super tough making friends in new cultures and I'm working remotely so I don't meet anyone at work either.

I think the key is that deep friendships take a long time to build. Also, because your personality is already mostly formed, it is hard to meet people that you fit with. When you are very young, it's easy to change yourself to fit the group of people you are with.

My biggest advice is not to rush it. Take every opportunity to spend time with other people, but if you don't "click", don't try to force it. When I first came to Japan I spent a lot of time with people who spoke English. It was something we had in common. In the end it was the only thing we had in common. I had some pretty bad experiences because I tried to hang on to friendships that really weren't good for me or the other person.

As others have mentioned, hobbies are a good way to go. Either find groups to do your hobbies with, or find some new hobbies that will help you meet new people.

One thing I have done in the past year (since I work from home, and often at night) is to wander around my neighbourhood and chat with the retired people where I live. They are lonely too :-).

I'm in Japan too! Are you based in Tokyo?

I'm actually in Shizuoka (in Makinohara). But I come to Tokyo occasionally. Feel free to give me a shout. My profile name is the same as my gmail account ;-)

Friendships are formed most easily when people work together over a period of time on a shared mission.

Find something that you want to do & go do it with other like-minded people. Talk to them about more than just the thing you are doing together, put the effort into getting to know them. Eventually some of them will become friends.

This is why you hear all the advice to 'join a club', 'join a sports team', 'go to church', 'volunteer somewhere' etc etc. But just joining up isn’t enough - you still have to put the effort in to make those personal connections.

It’s a long, slow process: we don’t realise how long it takes when we’re young because the experiences of youth (school, college) automatically create the conditions in which friendships can grow and flourish. Once we’re adults, those conditions no longer automatically happen & we have to put the effort in to making them happen ourselves.

In the meantime, actually doing something that you believe is worthwhile alongside other people is a great salve for loneliness, even if they aren’t 'friends' at that point in time.

Everyone struggles with this at some point, so don't worry.

- People rightfully prefer to be around interesting people. Some people are intrinsically interesting, but everyone can convey "interesting" by being genuinely interested in some aspect of the other person's life. Sometimes this can lead to getting invited to a future event, like an album release party because of a shared DJing interest for example, especially if the interest is niche or rare.

- Pick a friend from work or elsewhere that you'd like to get to know better. Take them out to lunch or coffee. Do the same next week and gradually strengthen your current network. Be sociable, and don't be afraid to have (appropriately) personal conversations or to ask friends for help or advice on something, even if you don't think you need it. They might have excellent advice or know someone who would be able to give you excellent advice.

- Do things on your own. Decide that you're going to a concert|club|museum|movie|<your scene> on Saturday, and during the days leading up to whatever it is you've decided to do, text friends about it. Say something along the lines of, "Hey, we're going to see so and so at such and such. Let me know if you're interested!" If no one can make it, you'll still have fun if you picked the right place, and there's a fair chance at least one person might be able to join.

- Consciously shape positive, confident thinking. Figure out what you like about yourself that you can be confident about! Nothing good can come from beliefs like "I know our friendships will never go past a certain level" and "the 'making friends' phase is over".

If you work, for example, 60 hours a week somewhere, at worst sitting in front of a computer, and on a rare times of freedom you ask hourself that question, it's probably not going to work.

You probably have to change the priorities in your life: work as the support not as the primary meaning of life. That also means actively investing time (a lot) in non-work activities. That's what's hard to do, since we acquire the habbits through the decades. Even worse, whichever company you work for will probably not like that the time of your physical presence decreases.

It's possible. But you'll have to actively pursue it and change.

I know that you probably want to maintain your privacy, but you just missed a good opportunity here to make friends via HN. You should say what state/city you're in, and you might be surprised at how welcoming people can be.

I was in a slightly similar situation in the late 90's when we moved from Florida to western NY. My wife was from this area, but I didn't know anyone. I made a few neighbor/friends, but it was tough because my wife hadn't been back home for many years and we had our own small business (no work acquaintances). I ended up learning to play ice hockey and joined a local group of guys that play pick-up every Sunday morning (we go for coffee afterwards and discuss whatever for a couple of hours). Long story short: I've known them for over a decade and they're now all like brothers to me.

It's tough to join groups when you don't know anyone. But, don't sell yourself short. Many people find it interesting that I've lived over a decade in 3 different US states, so you're practically Christopher Columbus in comparison. Oftentimes the things that we find the most boring about ourselves are exactly that which makes us the most interesting to others.

Good luck !

I read this a while ago which sums up the problem: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/fashion/the-challenge-of-m...

The most important thing I noted:

>As external conditions change, it becomes tougher to meet the three conditions that sociologists since the 1950s have considered crucial to making close friends: proximity; repeated, unplanned interactions; and a setting that encourages people to let their guard down and confide in each other

After two years of collecting acquaintances in Vancouver, I decided to start volunteering at the same place every week. I now have people who call me if I don't show up at a party!

Prolonged exposure really is the key to friendship, and for remote workers finding excuses to meet the same people repeatedly is a must.

I suspect it's very difficult. Later in life most people have coupled up and had a family, and that's where all their emotional investment goes. Before coupling and family, in late teens and twenty something adulthood, singletons have the bandwidth for the kind of deep friendship you describe. I know I did. So I think your ultimate solution to the problem of loneliness is the same as that of most other adults - a romantic life partner. In the mean time, I'm going to make a deeply unfashionable suggestion: what about joining a 'church' group? Since you're from SE Asia Christianity may not be the right tradition for you. Perhaps a Buddhist or Muslim congregation may be more appropriate. A faith community may well be the way to find the automatic acceptance you need.

I don't know much about Buddhism, but your suggestion about joining a Christian or Muslim church is likely to backfire. If you're joining out of purely a desire for social connection, you may find some difficulty if you discover the philosophical requirements are too much for you to bear.

In other words, you might make friends, then realize you're not on board with the theology, then end up with a very rough break up. This happened to me in college at least. Led to the worst time of my life.

The most important insights I have to offer is this: Ask for help. Offer it as well, but you _must_ ask for it. Do you want to be friends with invincible people who never need your assistance? Probably not if you are anything like me. Giving to other people makes us like them more, and this goes both ways. This is the Benjamin Franklin effect[1]

You have called out a desire to have more meaningful relationships, so I am not going to focus on meeting people, though the more people you meet the more you will find people with things in common.

Instead think about what makes deep connections? Shared experiences. Fellow feeling. Giving and accepting affection.

I am Australian and I am lucky enough to have moved to New York for work. I met some friends through Australian connections but the deepest connections I have made are through a random conversation at a networking event that led to some drinks, and then to an introduction to a group of like minded poets, artists and technologists.

But even then I felt on the outside.

The thing that changed that has been going to them for help with things in my life (support as I struggled with relationship trouble, homesickness, stress from work) as well as spending time in their company individually and as a group in both casual and more intense settings (camping). Part of the help I asked for I guess was their acceptance and approval of some poetry I was writing, which I performed for them. I guess that my thesis is shallow experiences make for shallow friendships and deep experiences (which by their nature require you to have your guard down) make deep friendships.

"Breaking into a clique" is a bad paradigm I think, you don't want to break in, you want to be brought in.

The only other thing I would say is seek people who are also seeking. They will be the ones who have arrived from elsewhere, the ones who are perhaps on the edges of the society that you are in. They want what you want.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect

The science, interestingly, says join a choir. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3292784/Why-singing-...

I wouldn't have any friends if it wasn't for football (Soccer). I am painfully shy, but through this shared team activity I've gained many people I know. So the first advice is hobbies.

The second piece of advice is if you are anything like me, it's not necessarily a group of friends you are looking for - it's one or two deep friendships. Concentrate on a couple of key relationships and maybe more will come through that!

Exactly what I was going to say! I scuba dive, and whenever I've moved to a new city the first thing I do is meet up with the local scuba diving club(s). A sports/activity/social club is a great way to meet like-minded people, but who are from diverse backgrounds and are of various ages.

Hackerspaces, (Team) Sports clubs, Join a band/music societies. I think it is easiest when you find a place where people gather that share your passions. How pleasant are people that become enthusiastic when you tell them about yourself? Building Friendships is really building, you won't pick them up somewhere so you need repeated interaction.

I have childhood friends, they feel little enthusiasm when I tell them about the 434 MHz transmitter I use on a Raspberry Pi to switch my lights. The never even booted Linux. I feel very alive when among people with my interests: Open source software, hardware tinkering. My employer (a worker assignment company (is that English?)) facilitates this, I highly enjoy it. I think I could build some friendships there, but I don't need it at the moment (young kid at home). That said, I sometimes feel I should drop some old friends in favor of new ones... Maybe later ;)

People in the US have to move fairly often for graduate school, jobs, etc. While some subset of the groups you're seeing are childhood friends, a large number of the people you're seeing have probably not been friends for all that long in the lifetime scheme of things!

Creating new friendships is difficult and quite similar to dating. It sounds like you're already part of a few groups, that's great! A good next step would be to approach interesting people w/in that group on an individual level and see if you have friend chemistry. This blog has a lot of great advice for the type of person most likely to end up on HN. http://captainawkward.com/2011/12/19/question-153-how-do-i-m...

Best of luck

I don't know about deep friendships, as I really don't have the time to maintain all my friendships anymore, but I've become friends with quite a few people by just picking a few groups on Meetup.com and keep showing up to meetups, do a little chit chat here and there, not a lot, but a little.

Eventually people started recognizing me as a regular and I got to know people well enough that they started being friendly to me and asking me to do things outside of meetups.

It also helped that I'm generally a friendly person, albeit somewhat quiet.

So I just made a consistent effort to keep going to these meetups for a period of two years, and I now know more people than I can keep track of, and made several pretty close friends out of it.

Most of the comments here are about how to make friendships, not how to make "deep friendships".

I have found the best way to work on a mission together. Go out to town looking for a nice girl(or guy) to date. Work on some project together. Go on a traveling adventure.

Where exactly do you find people to do such stuff? Everyone is busy with their own work and lives

1. go out there, activities, meetup.com, volunteering... 2. when you meet people, try to see them again: ask them out, organize something... 3. be a nice/fun guy to be around

The weird thing is that most advice you will find in seduction apply in looking for friends

Hobbies man. What you lack in childhood friends you can earn through activities pals. At least half of my friends I met them at some activity or hobby. People use to bond when they share a common interest. Take some artisan classes, cooking sessions, art tours, or simply enlist yourself in an amateur sports club. There are also a gazillion of adventure clubs, from hiking to mountaineering to the very extremes, targeted to all ages and physical condition. And even if you’re strictly a geek and you find none of the above attractive you could try joining a pen and paper old fashioned D&D club.

And if a geek, there are also maker groups and tech meetups, in fact meetups of any kind

My advice might sound unusual, but ... consider moving to another (smaller) city. I moved to Canada a few years ago and lived in Montreal and Toronto since then. Toronto is ridiculously hard for socializing. Ridiculously. People (especially below 40) are distant, reserved, sometimes passively aggressive (esp. girls) and even rude. At the same time my experience with Montreal was totally opposite and I made a few good connections in Montreal. I haven't lived in Ottawa but my impression from travels across Canada is that people are much nicer everywhere outside of Toronto.

I'm in the same situation, I came to France recently after I graduated from Algeria to work in some IT company, and I find it really hard to make friends. specially in France where people doesn't really welcome foreigners, due to many reasons, the events of Paris will make it even harder, but sometime I wonder if its me who is not sociable or the people around me who are less interested in making new connections.

There's lots of good advice here on meeting people. But in my experience the hard part has been moving from acquaintance or casual friend to good friend. It was always easy to meet people through hobbies, but those relationships tended to end up focused exclusively on the shared activity -- I'm not very outgoing so I wouldn't really talk about anything else with those people, or spend time with them outside that activity.

But a couple years ago I joined a very close-knit martial arts group and have finally made some good friends that way. I think the big difference is that this group does public demos and attends competitions together. That often means spending most of a weekend together, including some less-structured time that encourages more casual conversation. Competitions can also be very intense experiences, and supporting each other through that helps to form stronger bonds.

As it turns out, the last time I made a lot of close friends it was through my college fencing club, which had a lot of the same characteristics.

I guess that doesn't help much unless you're interested in martial arts or other competitive activities. But it worked for me.

Is there anything you are really passionate about? Politics, religion, a TV show, genre of literature, charity, etc.?

I've found that it's easier to form faster relationships by being in a select "in-group" of people who are united around a cause. The downside to that is that if you change your views or become less passionate, the people may tend to isolate from you. Same thing for when you have friends from work. However, you can try to turn these more superficial friendships into more meaningful ones by talking about people's kids, dating life, childhood, etc. Once you talk about things that are more intimate, people will view you as a more intimate friend than you actually are. And remember you have to "give to get" - so talk about yourself and share details that push the boundary of your intimacy level (not in a creepy way). That will also make people feel that you have a closer relationship than you do and they will view you as a closer friend.

And read "How to Win Friends and Influence People" for tips on talking to people more when you are with them.

I was an army brat, moving to a new place every couple years (at least). Later in life, I started moving in parallel of my family for my studies. I moved to China right after I graduated and have been traveling more than I'd like ever since: I actually spent the past 3 or so years living full time on Airbnb or short term leases between Shanghai, SF, Berlin, DC and NYC.

And I still meet people.

I do have people regularly becoming good friends. Not that many, but then I've always preferred small circles.

You could very well engineer your way through it honestly, but you must realize that, like sales or marketing, this mostly involves dealing with people. And people are tricky.

Code will give you an instantaneous (or close enough) feedback; it compiles and crashes, or fails test/QA. You get that in seconds, hours, maybe days or weeks.

With sales, you throw yourself out there and start seeing results down the line, weeks if you're very lucky, but most likely months after you kicked things off. And before it yields any results, you have to be consistent in your effort to reach out and maintain the relationship with your prospective clients.

You want friends. You really really want to? Well then time to start organizing dinners with the ones you know already, or throwing a casual party at your place next weekend. Propose a drink after work once in a while or plan activities that others can tag along with. Encourage them to invite their friends as well, and slowly, but surely, you'll get invited back and introduced to new folks.

Overall, be upbeat and open minded.

But again, and that's the real tricky part, you can't just "try real hard for 2 weeks" and then give up. You'll have to be consistent and resolute for a while before you get anywhere. Like all good things in life, it takes time.

As an expat, it's harder than in a country where you master unspoken social rules. I know this from experience.

I believe your best bet is to meet other people lost in translation, and especially expats. Ideally not all from your native country: often, such circles (people from country X trying to make themselves an enjoyable life in country Y) tend to encourage their members to bitch on country Y, and that's not the path to happiness.

Internet should help you find people. If you have hobbies, it helps having a common ground to build upon.

About kids, lovers and family: it's quite difficult to share a social life between single people, engaged people and people with kids. If the bond preexists a divergence of lifestyles, it can survive, but each of these lifestyles come with hard-to-reconcile constraints.

Finally, if you can pass the IQ test, Mensa is a nice community of too-smart-for-their-own-good people, looking for meaningful and intellectually engaging bonds.

Go to Burning Man, or a regional event. It's the canonical way. You can make some serious friendships there.

Upvoting this, because I wish I knew.

I think it is important to understand that friendships usually get built up slowly. However you don't need patience you need to enjoy the process, so there is nothing to endure.

My advice is to try to enjoy your shallow relationships with colleagues and acquaintances. Don't underestimate the rituals of greeting people and participating in small talk.

Relax, listen and share a little-bit of your life ("Traffic is crap, I really wish there was a subway here").

Don't try too hard to turn them into big friendships, end the conversation when it becomes awkward with a "nice talking to you". Try to show up to events or invite people.

Everything else will come in time, especially if you enjoy yourself.

> Everyone already has their own childhood friends, family, support group that they have built themselves around their whole lives and grew up with. To them, I am just another 'colleague' or 'fellow member of X and Y group', and I know our friendships will never go past a certain level.

I think you are misinterpreting the local culture.

If they are in their 20's then their friendship networks are still quite young and are being created, perhaps you are not understanding your value and potential to the group.

Deep friendships though are just about time and random events. That's why it's good to have diverse acquaintances -> friendships -> deep friendships.

I am also in the same boat.

One thing that worked for me (unintentionally) is volunteering - I met some great people, even formed a handful of friendships.

Another interesting habit (again unintentionally) that worked for me is talking to old people. I enjoy talking to them as they have lots of stories to tell and wisdom to share. Some of the best conversations I've had are with older folks (60's and above).

It is hard though, once we are in our 30's

Are there any apps that we can use to meet people other than meetup.com and that don't rely on Facebook?

New people find each other every day. They usually form around a certain common ground or interest, be it religious, Buddhist (1) or even Freemasons if religion is not your thing (2). Good luck.

(1) http://www.buddhisttemple.ca (2) http://www.grandlodge.on.ca

(Edit: deleted 'this will probably get down-voted part of comment)

Just so you know you, are being downvoted because you said "this will be downvoted," which is frowned upon. This community is actually quite sympathetic to buddhist ideas.

Why thank you, I wasn't aware of that. I'll adjust my comment.

A lot of questions like this (how to get dates, rise up the ladder, find friends, etc.) have the same answer (well essentially). All you got to do is -

1. Get out there 2. Be yourself

I wrote a whole essay a minute ago, but really it could be a whole course. Like the theme of YCombinator with startups, do things that don't scale.

Find a purpose that you can bring to the table. Can you code well, play a sport, sing, draw? If you have a skill or a hobby then pursue that. I find friends for every activity I do. Its not that I'm trying, but people are everywhere doing everything.

Those people you find in bars aren't always friends since forever either. Life experience tends to make people more emphatic towards each other, right? We all have gone through schools, jobs, and relationships. Had ups and downs. Sometimes its just nice to sit down with anyone who's listening to talk/rant/laugh about those moments.

I'm 31 and work 1hr and a half from home. My house is in a town 2 hours from where I grew up. I knew no one when I arrived but now know plenty of people. And not just in my town, but all over. Some of my favorite people I have met the past couple of years. I tend to see them only once or twice a year. When we do meet up, we can spend all night talking as if we grew up with each other.

If you're open to be a little transparent and also are interested in hearing other people's stories you'll do fine. You'll find it get much easier the more you allow yourself to chill out.

Try this - If you're really having problems meeting folks try the following. 1. Find any gathering where people would be active in your favorite hobby 2. Give yourself only 10 minutes (you can stay the entire night, but 10 minutes from when you arrive to when you leave is enough) 3. Listen in on a conversation (or join the activity for a session) and add a couple of knowledge here and there 4. Leave

What have you learned? You learned how to find people! You may also have found a couple of people who you ended up hanging out with for the duration of the 10 minutes. You might have even stayed the entire night having fun. You may even have had a few FB invites coming your way.

Remember, most people are usually game for new experiences. You are that new experience. Get out there and have some fun!

> How do I overcome this sense of loneliness and dismality?

You are actually asking several different questions. But I suspect if you can overcome this one, you'll find that you won't really yearn for deep friendships as much.

There are several things you should probably ask yourself:

- Are upset that you are alone, or are that you are lonely? Remember, there's two are not necessarily the same.

- What is making you feel dismal about life, exactly?

- What is your definition of a "deep" friendship?

In my opinion, this is the most incisive reply in this thread.

The yearning for "deep" friendships reflects some underlying need. I tend to think few strong relationships develop as the result of deliberate effort. They arise naturally, at any age, as a result of shared experiences and a sense of mutual understanding.

My suggestion is to focus on your work, and perhaps try to find a romantic partner. Relationships inevitably emerge in the context of collaboration, and much "loneliness" is actually sexual frustration. Also consider imposing limits on the amount of time you spend alone in your residence and, if you can tolerate the compromises, roommates can help reduce the sense of alienation that comes with living alone.

Maybe I will expand a little bit more on my original post.

A colleague of mind left a little earlier before work ended because he had an appointment with some of his highschool friends. From what he told us they don't live in the same area any more but make it a point to meet up once a month.

After work I made a detour to get some stuff, and I happened to walk past the cafe where said colleague was hanging out with his friends. I was walking opposite the street but could see them through the glass windows laughing and having a good time, and in that moment I felt a visceral pang of emptiness / loneliness.

I am unable to forge a deep level of friendship with people that I meet in Meetup groups - simply because they already have their own cliques and social circle. Even if they do form a new one, it will never be as close-knit as the ones they have formed throughout highschool simply by virtue of the fact that one has been ongoing for a longer time.

If you can visualize it like a spider web, where you are in the centre and the 'webs' that branch out are your friends - the more friends you make and the stronger connections you form (usually happens throughout high school and college) - the larger your spider web grows exponentially. The closer a person is to you, the nearer he is to the 'centre' of the web. Think of it this way - the larger the spider web people have, the harder it is for someone to get as close to the centre of the net as possible. At this stage of life - almost everyone already has established their 'spider web'.

I know this because I actually do have such a clique since highschool. We still maintain contact over Whatsapp but since I am the only one that is overseas, I am unable to meet up with them frequently. And within that circle I do have a couple of close friends who I message on a weekly basis, and who I would call lifelong buddies. No way will the new friends I make over volunteering/hobbies/meetup groups ever become closer to me than these lifelong buddies I have - so how how can I expect the same for them?

I'm sorry to hear this is such a painful experience for you. Perhaps some of us are just so accustomed to moving around that the depth of friendship you seek is a foreign concept. Some of this is just an aspect of modern society -- we lack strong ties to our place of birth and we don't all share similar values.

The only concrete advice I can provide is to try finding a romantic partner. You would be less lonely, any sexual frustration you're experiencing would be relieved, and you may develop friendships through your significant other. In many cases, finding such a partner would be easier than happening upon a person who is looking for the kind of friendship you seek. Dating is common, setting out to develop friendships not so much.

Hi. You seem nice. I'm nomadic but don't have a problem making friends that feel like siblings. I think this has to do with the fact that I try to be completely open about who I am and my many short comings from the start. For whatever reason you are more likely to get the same response. Maybe you are a very open person and this is an unhelpful suggestion. But I'll make it anyway, because you seem nice:)

So I just read down to the bottom waiting to see the answer - common interests - but didn't.

It's that easy. Find something you love doing, and you'll inevitably find and meet like-minded people. You'll naturally gravitate to one or more in that community and the seeds for friendship awesomeness are yours to nourish and grow.

Personal experience has yielded 20+ year friendships by skydiving, scuba diving, radio control, and martial arts.

Joining a Dojo (any kind of group practicing some kind of Martial Art, not necessarily a Japanese one) is a good idea - in my experience the sense of camaraderie is a good way to make friends outside of training hours. Also, there are many different martial arts, more or less ritualized, more or less strenuous, so there is a good chance you may find something that appeals to your own preferences.

Speaking of Dojo. Why not mentor at your local Coder Dojo? (Or start one) I've found it a great way to meet people and have made some good friends with other mentors and the parents of the ninjas (kids).

https://coderdojo.com/

Get a hobby. Join a club. Mine hobby is riding a motorcycle. I've seriously met people and made friends through reddit by PMing them saying "Hey, we live pretty close, wanna ride?".

Making friends and building relationships, like everything else, requires work. You won't get it for free, except at school/work where you're basically forced to be around the same people all the time.

Read the book by Dale Carnegie (http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/06...). Joining events on http://www.meetup.com/ can be helpful too.

I've red it. It's made of behavioral patterns for sellers mostly, I think you will not get any real friend following the teachings of that book.

Meetup events are a much better way.

When you find yourself following the advice in the book without trying or thinking about it is when you have met potential friends, I think.

I tried the advice in the book, it's fine for superficial connections with people only. It mostly tells you to never contradict people to be more "likeable". It's OK for a first contact with people for sure, but not for establishing a real connection.

To the OP, if you do not have time to read or if you are not sure whether it is worth reading, you can read the summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influen...

First impression is very important when you are meeting anyone. One of the most important takeaways from the book is "be genuinely interested in other people".

I've written another summary, focused only on a few points, but a bit more flesh, not just bullet points: http://www.2uo.de/how-to-win-friends/

Great idea for a website or app!

Here in france, we have a website called On Va Sortir (We Are Going Out: http://paris.onvasortir.com) that allows people (mostly newcomers from the rest of the country) to schedule meetups.

It's a bit like meetup.com, just more local and tuned to french people.

Maybe Canada needs its own Meetup?

A lot of cities have meetup groups (www.meetup.com) for whatever interests you might have. I am in Barcelona, and there are a number of expat groups, practice spanish groups, as well as tech meetup groups (as well as a ton more - the ones I mentioned are maybe more relevant to a newcomer in the city).

"deep and meaningful connections or friendships"

You mean a wife or husband? Or a dog? Maybe find a church you like?

Social groups are good way of meeting new friends, tech meetups, karate, tennis..

I always tell people who move to a new city to join a meetup, class, or some type of group that will force you to repetitively be around the same group of people. If you have basic social skills you will make friends.

Pursue your interests, skydiving, wargaming, poetry, dance, futbol, religion, politics, whatever. This is somewhat likely to lead to meeting people with a shared interest. That's the basis for community.

Good luck.

Were you successful making such friendships earlier in life?

This raises a good point. If he wasn't good at making such relationships earlier in life, he may be a bit challenged. I think part of his problem is also that he's looking for deep friendships. They don't come easily.

You don't have to be someone's soul mate in order to enjoy time with them. Those things will come naturally (Or not - but at least you did go out and socialize.)

To me deep friendships are the distilled product of having many shallow ones. One does not go out to make deep friendships, one goes out to make friends or acquaintances and some of those contacts will deepen over time.

Join a local facebook group. I joined a local music/partying facebook group and have met tons of new people after that through regular meetups.

Join extreme-ish outdoor activity group.

Nothing bonds people faster and stronger than helping each other to survive in a wilderness.

get a hobby - preferably one that requires you to be outdoors (sports, hiking, photography etc). you can't believe how many people you meet, some of them are bound to be good friend material.

There are ways to make deeper relationships faster. The key is to become an irreplaceable existence in each others' lives. People fall in love and become closer than any childhood friends (in several aspects at least) even if they meet late in life, right? You basically need to create that kind of relationship with whoever you choose to cultivate a deep friendship with.

You can certainly overcome the time condition with practice on getting closer faster. I spent 2 years as a nomad traveling through and living in ~8 vastly different cultures where I didn't even speak the language and had no local friends before I got there. Before that, I was born in India, grew up in the Middle East, studied on the East Coast, and worked in California. During all these transitions I went through lots of periods of incredible loneliness and missing out on the long-standing relationships others had, which is I guess how I learned most of this. Some general tips based on that experience.

- Cut the chitchat. Skip the "where do you work? where did you grow up? what's your favorite color?" bullshit when you meet someone. It isn't enriching, and it's more often than not forgettable for both people. You will learn these things about each other over time if you become closer, so save it for later. Don't initiate these questions, and find ways to segway out of this into the other stuff (see below) if the other person initiates it.

- Forge a mentor/padawan relationship. If you know more about something they're interested in, or vice versa, go for this, and do it in a respectful manner whichever side you're on, but also be willing to treat them as a peer. This instantly makes you irreplaceable as a friend they can and want to learn from (or teach to), when it's something they're embarrassed to do with their other friends.

- Be a good conversationalist. Listen to what they're saying, ask interesting questions, always prioritizing making them feel comfortable telling you more stuff and think more, rather than just making smalltalk. Try to relate to what they're saying but with as little talking about yourself. Direct the conversation towards interesting aspects of the topic rather than mundane superficial details. E.g.

Them: Ugh rough day at work

You: Good challenges or stuff you wish you didn't have to deal with? (rather than "tell me about it")

Them: I guess good challenges, but I wouldn't want to face this too often. We were having a crisis deciding which one the core feature of our new product is, and I and the director of product had somewhat conflicting opinions. (rather than what he would have said "oh, argument with my boss")

This provokes thought, and they associate talking to you with having more meaningful conversations, rather than just regurgitating the same words they'd used with their mom or the bartender who said they looked down.

- Practice under semi-artificial constraints. As someone else suggested, couchsurfing (or living in dorm-style AirBnBs). You will meet other solo travelers or hosts who would like to get to know you. Practice these with them. The time-limit on when you'll depart will encourage everyone to have more fun with you before you go.

- Break down your walls. Be open. Talk about deep topics and expose your flaws and vulnerabilities and things you care about. Talk about things like this, your loneliness and jealousy over other people having deeper friendships. You make yourself vulnerable, but it'll appeal to human empathy, and people will want to help [NOTE: Don't get needy or whiny. Just explore your internal workings together with people]. This draws them in faster and they will want to understand you at a deeper level. They don't see you as that guy who's sitting across the table from them, but as a fellow human being who is in need of their company. People love feeling needed.

- Live together, travel together. Don't live alone. When traveling, don't get a hotel room, go dorm-style. When renting, get a house with a shared kitchen and living room. Carpool. Do a sport with your housemates, work on home decor together (furniture shopping, etc). Go hang out in their room.

- Play games. Sports are not always easy to coordinate, but football/basketball/tennis with colleagues or other friends is a great way to get closer. If those aren't feasible, play video games together. Have a video game party evening now and then for console people, or just play online while voice chatting in a Hangout/Skype call. Make non-game-related conversation when between games. Or if you want to be away from the computer, play board games. With your housemates, a nearby board game meetup, coworkers, etc. Gaming brings out a lot of personality aspects of people, and they don't waste energy on chitchat.

- The above can be summarized as don't just talk to people, but have experiences together. Suffer something together (sport/school/gym), build something together (work/cooking/housekeeping), enjoy something together (concert/games).

The part I didn't talk about much is how to meet people. I'll leave that to you. I hope this gives you an idea on what aspects of your human interaction to improve upon so that you can make the most of the pool of people you do get to meet, and get deeper and closer friendships overcoming the aspect of duration.

Volunteer.

how about trying some tech meetups?

Find a counsellor.

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