FBI's “imperfect entrapment” of teen may lead to FAA challenge
buzzfeed.com
buzzfeed.com
However, unlike some others in this thread, I don't find myself privately rejoicing that a legal technicality has now presented him with a chance of freedom. Whatever the causes of his antipathy toward the United States, and however you feel about the surveillance state and general disregard among law enforcement for our constitutional rights, Mohamud demonstrated a very clear intention to kill many people whom he never met. This cannot be attributed to entrapment, even if it is ultimately shown that his constitutional rights have been violated.
I hope Mohamud has overcome whatever psychological state led him into this situation. If it could be shown that he is truly better, I would have no objection to his return to society. But there is something absurd about the possibility that a person with a demonstrated propensity for mass violence might be returned to society at large without any legal restrictions, psychological treatment, or period of supervision.
> Mohamud is the very first criminal defendant to challenge the FAA before a court of appeals, which opens the door for a hearing before the U.S. Supreme Court. The appeal has widespread implications: The controversial law provides the legal framework for the mass surveillance programs that Edward Snowden revealed in 2013.
> “It’s not an exaggeration,” Patrick Toomey, an American Civil Liberties Union attorney, told BuzzFeed News, “to say that the privacy rights of millions of Americans potentially hang in the balance of his case.”
I understand the legal implications. If only our legal system were not organized such that one must invest so much effort into proving 'standing,' perhaps we could respond to the situation rationally instead of choosing between two potentially negative outcomes.
Why should they have it any better than the unAmerican citizens of the world?
These agencies need to know there is someone watching over them. They need to know there are limits. And, god forbid, the worst happens and he commits a crime after he is released, these agencies need to know that the blood is on their hands, because they royally fucked up.
If you want to convict someone and have it stick, it has to be done by the books. In this case, the FBI is the real threat to the American people.
It would seem that there should be a better way to organize our legal system so society isn't faced with dilemmas of this sort.
You're seeing an interaction between two rather unintuitive rules.
Standing is required because legislature is supposed to make the law, not the courts. The courts only "make law" when they're forced to because there is already a "case or controversy" and it has to be decided under the law in effect when the events occurred, not whatever Congress might decide to pass tomorrow. Only then do the courts decide what the ambiguous, vague, contradictory text Congress passed actually means. Then that decision stands as precedent and effectively becomes the law until the legislature disagrees in the form of passing contrary legislation (or a constitutional amendment).
But the thing you're really objecting to is the exclusionary rule. Letting bad people go free is the mechanism by which the exclusionary rule operates, because it's something the police don't want, which means it can be used as punishment for the police when they break the rules.
The exclusionary rule is weird. When you see it in operation your instinct is to think that something is malfunctioning, but that's how it's supposed to work. You think it isn't working because you want the same thing as the police and its method of operation is to do something the police don't want.
The problem is the exclusionary rule does what it's designed to do surprisingly well in practice, and the alternatives don't.
The issue I'm referring to is that no one is in a position to challenge this component of the FAA without demonstrating that they personally have sustained harm, meaning their rights as an individual have been violated. In other words, the issue is that there must be a "case or controversy" to test a legal hypothesis.
If there were a means of challenging the constitutional validity of a law, or an interpretation of the law, without the burden of proving that one has personally sustained harm, then the public would be able to challenge this component of the FAA in situations other than one where a possibly dangerous person stands a chance of being released. I think few would be prepared to argue his case were it not for its legal significance.
Correct me if I'm mistaken; you seem to be more educated on the subject.
The problem is you may not be able to prove it.
The government could have trivially helped everyone out simply by admitting that they're spying on all these people, and then the issue could have been decided before it was important to a real criminal case, under circumstances where nobody bad is let out of prison if the government loses.
But then the person whose rights are violated in the deciding case ends up being a highly sympathetic journalist or civil rights leader instead of some highly unsympathetic terrorist wannabe. The government doesn't want that (because they don't want to lose), so instead they purposely try to force the situation in which bad people go free if the courts rule against the government.
The problem is that by the nature of surveillance and what the government does with the results (uses the tastiest bits as evidence and hides the rest), only "bad people" will ever be able to prove that they were the target of illegal surveillance. Thus the unfortunate situation.
There is nothing illegal in wanting to kill people. There is nothing illegal in having radical religious (or other) beliefs. Free societies don't punish thought crime.
The only thing the law enforcement/legal system can legally and morally do, is to mark him as a potential threat (and increase surveillance) like they would with any other suspected terrorist.
True, but actively planning and taking concrete steps to prepare to actually kill people and trying to trigger a bomb to do so absolutely is illegal, and it appears that this is what he did.
The other part is unfortunately due to radicalisation by the FBI and other state agencies. Had this teen been made to work for an honest living — as he was trying to by working on a fishing boat, would he realise the value of life. And part of his personality seems odd as well, he's hypocritical and blames his transgressions on western society whereas there are countless cases of individuals living a productive & a peaceful life.
His parents' approach has been reactive instead of being preemptive. Had they known of him sneaking around and being with shady characters they should've had a proper intervention and led him on the right path.
Parenting is hard, and unfortunately this is a case of failed parenting.
Daesh is clearly an evil organization that needs to be eradicated. At the same time, most of us side with Snowden vs the NSA because we believe the freedom of citizens at large is crucial, and that the government cannot be trusted to erode the rights of only the wicked. The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with hunting rights - it's supposed to empower citizens to resist the unjust use of force, either by an invading army or by a corrupt domestic military. In the same way, the 1st Amendment only has value when it protects all speech, not just politically popular speech.
Disrupting Daesh recruitment by whatever means necessary feels correct, but I can't shake a "first they came for the Socialists..." feeling about shutting down allegedly pro-terror publications.
As far as I know, most of them got recruited through friends (people often join as a group, apparently).
Well, least it's consistent with US policy with the mujahideen from Afghanistan against the Soviets.
Wahabism (Salafism) is decidedly not traditionalist. At best, it's a form of degraded literalism that abandons 1400 years of exegesis for an anarchic reading of Islamic texts. It lends itself easily to terrorism, and, as the founding doctrine of the Saudi state, it is gaining traction in much of the world. It seems to have particular appeal for "born again" types like the subject of this article.
“And this is what’s in your heart?” Youssef said. “You know, there’s going to be a lot of children there.”
“Yeah, I mean, that’s what I’m looking for,” Mohamud said.
Providing this is an accurate recounting of events (this IS the FBI we're talking about), it was at this point that I stopped caring about the poor misled / "entrapped" teenager.
He just flat out said he wanted to kill a bunch of people including innocent children. And was given multiple outs by the so-called entrappers.
Entrapment nothing - this sounds like a legitimate sting operation to me that got a dangerous killer off the streets.
Based on the article, it seems to me that he almost certainly would not have. He appears to be naive, gullible, and latching on to one thing or other for direction. When placed on a perfectly set up stage for doing something horrible, he did it. But without that perfect stage, what would he have done? He's clearly not a "good person", and could definitely be described as "immoral". But it's not clear to me that he's a criminal and deserves jail time. It seems like he didn't meet the requirements for an entrapment defense, at least according to the jury. But it still seems very close to entrapment: he's essentially being punished for a a tendency or a willingness to do horrible things, even if he would never have done them without specific encouragement.
Given the events in the article, if he had these feelings on or before the moment was contacted by FBI Special Agent Jason Dodd agent posing as the recent convert Bill Smith, then I agree the FBI had the responsibility to pursue him. However, if not, the FBI entrapped Mohamud. (why? read on)
The article goes into detail about Mohamud's upbringing. I'm going to take a few quotes from it: - 'Like many refugee children, Mohamud had to deal with cultural barriers that separated him from his parents, his American friends, and his mostly white classmates. There is little question he felt different. For an issue of the class magazine, for example, Duncan asked his students to draw cartoons of themselves and caption them. Under his portrait, Mohamud wrote, “I’m the black one.”'
- 'Mohamud’s friends from that time acknowledged he was easy to influence'
- “Home was kind of a hostile environment for him,” [re: his parents breakup who subsequently divorced]
- '“manipulable” and “conflicted”' [the words in double quotes are those as written in an email by FBI Special Agent DeLong to other FBI agents in 2009]
- '“shy around authority figures.”'
When you take someone like that and make them the target of a sting operation...
I'm just not going to finish my sentence.
Not only that, here is another (lengthy) quote:
The public record of that meeting is incomplete. In what the FBI claimed was an honest mistake, Youssef’s tape recorder had dead batteries. Apart from the anonymous agent’s testimony, the only source for what Mohamud said that day is a summarized report prepared by Chan. At trial, Chan said he had destroyed his original notes.
(The defense took great issue with this at trial. Entrapment law requires prosecutors to show that a defendant was predisposed to commit the crime before the first contact with government agents. The nuances of Mohamud’s behavior and language during the first meeting, the defense argued, were vital.)
The FBI do not have a checklist that involves checking the batteries of any electronic devices to be used in an operation prior to operation.
Edit: spacing
And this despite being given many, many chances to rethink his actions.
I think we need a new approach. I think in situations where it is applicable, authorities should attempt to positively intervene in a person's life when, for example, in this situation where they collect information about a highschool student who starts interacting with editors of extremist publications. That sort of things should shoot up red flags that someone needs help, rather than wait a few years and see if they can get them to try to kill people.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-legislatu...
http://www.citynews.ca/2015/09/17/lawyers-in-b-c-court-argue...
Apathy is the enemy of democracy.
... apparently in this case the devil could change Job's mind.
Really?
There are flights (with transfers) you can take from Alaska to Pakistan or Yemen. It's not unreasonable at all.
It's a very weird mix of horrible surface-level junk and in-depth, interesting articles. Gotta be a weird business/cultural mix.
That's why in addition to their actual journalism they have clickbait that makes them money.
Many if not most of the major websites have this dual identity where they put reams of fluff, then the occasional substantive piece.
It still seems like there's a need for a different funding model. But it's interesting that one still hasn't emerged, given that the erosion of the old one has gone as far as it has.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law
More seriously, anything that produces a lot of work is going to produce a smaller amount of excellent work. Anecdotally, one of the primary indicators of webcomic quality (overall!) is how often it updates.