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Comment by dplgk | Hacker News Reader

Working remotely is excellent. 1.5 hours less commuting - that's more time to get work done or go to the gym or read the news. No one can come to my desk to socialize or ask a quick question to fuck up my flow. No one requiring me to arrive at an office at an arbitrarily early time. No dress code. No ad hoc meetings in the conference room. Listening to music I like aloud. All conf calls done on speaker. I'm home to receive any deliveries. I could go on.

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I'm not a fan of people interrupting either, but I've come to realize it does help the team run more efficiently. If I get 3 legitimate interruptions a day where 5 minutes of my time saves the other developer an hour, overall it means my team just accomplished 3 hours of work in 15 minutes.

Or say some error or urgent request comes up, it's been my experience at our office that the point person can look around, grab people into a quick meeting and resolve something in 10 minutes that would otherwise kick around in email for days.

It also helps on the social side to be "plugged into" the company. When you run across some weird error or feature request it's really valuable to know who you can even ask about a related part of the codebase or functionality. And you build that mental database by socializing.

Just a few of points the other way :-) I've done both remote and office work and just happen to prefer the higher bandwidth/iteration speed of in-person work.

I switched from remote back to in-person about 2 months ago, and to be honest I'd completely forgotten how much easier it is to get some things done in a co-located environment. There were a lot of great things about working from home, but getting things done at anything above a "banging out the actual code" scale was not one of them.

I wish I could take back all my prior invocations of the complaint that someone interrupting me for 15 seconds eats 15 minutes of my productivity. Not only have I come to recognize just how transparently self-centered that meme is (and I'm embarrassed that I couldn't see it before, but given all the other great things about working from home I suppose a little confirmation bias is understandable), I've also realized that there are really quite a few domains where premature optimization is the root of all evil.

When I'm onsite with my team, it's so enjoyable because we can laugh and joke and mull over problems together. It's got a real sort of in the trenches feel to it. It's hard for me to think of those distractions as negative.

I think that the interruptions thing is definitely true, but the things that interrupt us are our devices, not our people. You can tell a colleague that you've got to get more uninterrupted time, but your device continually beckons.

Another thing that interrupts me is slow system access. I'm trying to develop on a test database that's abhorrently slow. Each time I'm forced to wait, I quickly pick up my phone, or load up a Hacker News tab.

I've found, after coding+managing remotely[0], that it takes a specific set of traits to be a successful remote worker.

- strong work ethic: no one needs to tell you that it's time to start working for the day/after lunch etc.

- strong communication: not the same as being an extrovert. might even help if you are an introvert. Just comfortable with text being the dominant means of articulation.

- strong 9-5 boundaries: might not be 9-5, might not be exactly 8 hours, but they have work hours and non-work hours and adhere to them.

- not junior: I've met a few junior devs who are good remote workers, but overwhelmingly most are seasoned. Maybe it just takes time to figure out the work-life balance/discipline integral to being an effective remote worker?

- trustworthy: the kind of person you can hand off something to and know it will be done.

- not great at ping pong: maybe those relate to the strong work ethic? That is, they never took/had time for honing ping pong skills at work ? Maybe that's just me :)

I work remotely too so maybe the traits are biased towards the positive.

[0] Team lead with one on ones + reviews for ~20 people.

Great list!

I agree with all but the 9-5 premise. The thing that makes it easy for me is Git! Having all of our work stored in version control gives our team 100% accountability in a totally painless way. And if there's ever a project I'm working on outside of git, I do daily dump archives so each day is snapshotted.

No need to track hours, no need to wonder what somebody did all day. If you want to know what I did last tuesday go check my commit!

Version control = accountability and trust

The 9-5 premise is about having regular hours (whatever they are) so team members can get in touch if they need to. It's also about signaling when team members can't get in touch. Both are important since they are implicit to an office but something you need to be careful to correctly define/signal when you are working remotely.

I don't really look at commit logs because, to me, they reflect how one prefers to work, rather than how productive they are being. 2 people can easily have 2 or 20 commits for the same feature set. I'm not going to be calling one a 10x engineer based on that :)

To that end I don't believe in looking at commit log, or time tracking (!) because both can be falsified pretty easily: they are just another form of counting lines of code IMO. I prefer to look at how much customer value someone is delivering and how much other team members listen to them.

I focus on delivering recurring value so we're on the same page. I also agree that communication should have clear hours regardless of when you work, so you can be reached when others need you, and you know when you can reach them. For us it gets a little stretched out because of the time zone difference too, but most of our communication happens through the ticket system.

I'm not advocating numbers of lines of code or numbers of commits either, value is what's important, but having a daily, timestamped record of everything everybody did just takes all the question out of 'What did you do last Tuesday?', any of us could just go and check. Working with version control has been a _huge_ benefit to remote working because it provides a way that people who don't see each other can trust each other.

It also ensures that nothing of value what was ever produced by anybody (and paid for) is ever lost, even if deleted. That's just smart business!

That makes sense. I like the idea also of using it as a quick refresher to remind everyone/yourself what you were doing X days ago esp. during review time. Thanks!

Why the 9-5 boundary? Personally, I get my best work done during non-traditional hours, e.g. past midnight.

I think it is figurative 9-5 rather than literal. In other words, knowing that there are boundaries and limits between work and non-work time instead of falling victim to the temptation of working all the time when you are at home.

From your team's perspective:

It's so team members can get in touch if they need to. It's also about signaling when team members can't get in touch. Both are important since they are implicit to an office but something you need to be careful to correctly define/signal when you are working remotely. Note that it doesn't have to be 9-5 office time, just needs to be hours people expect to be able(and not able) to get in touch: 12-8 your local time? Go for it! Whatever works so you can maximize you and your team's work/life balance :)

From a personal sanity perspective it's as firebones says in reply.

FWIW, I -- and most engineers -- fall victim to the the personal sanity perspective rather more frequently.

I'm available to the team most of the time, even on weekends. The more junior they are, the greater the effort I make to be available to them.

But in my mind there is a difference between being available for questions/advice vs. actually working, e.g. designing a system or writing code. If someone messages me on a Saturday asking, "hey, which server do I log into to do X?" then taking the two minutes to reply means I'm available, but I don't think of it as "work".

You are being a good short-term team member, but that might not be the best for you or the team in the long-term. If you/other senior devs are getting the same random questions, maybe create a faq/run book? I've usually made it a point to say: here's the answer, now can you add it to the FAQ? That way, ideally, I never have to answer it again/that's the first place people check.

Working remotely is an awesome experience for me as well, but I work for myself so it might be different if you work in a regular job that lets you work from home. I have the ability to ignore customers who are being overly pushy/demanding/rude, and I can take time off whenever I like. I tend to take a lot of breaks during the day to watch TV, do exercise, etc. I'm married, so that is sufficient social interaction for me. For work communication, I find email/skype to be more efficient than being in an office and having "status" meetings every day.

However, I can see that if you work for someone else, there could be a lot of pressure if things aren't going well or if you have a demanding boss, and you might feel trapped being at home and not having anywhere else to escape to.

I jog during the time I normally would be commuting, on nice days I work with the windows open, at the office I have a certain level of anxiety - just thanks to the traffic around me. I'm with you on this, working from home is awesome. It suits my personality.

Just a thought: you might someday find a home and work orientation where you can jog to work and shower there. This arrangement is certainly possible in cities like SF. Also many offices have windows that can be opened (if I were your colleague I would definitely want the window open if it meant something to you).

(It sounds like you are happy! I just wanted to point out to you and others that these two particular perks do not necessarily require working from home)

Edit: same general idea goes for the folks down thread appreciating access to a full kitchen. In fact, if one were designing an office, would this thread not be a great place to get ideas to distinguish your new office in awesome ways?

I interviewed at Whisper when they were in a mansion in Santa Monica. It was an interesting setup that had all the amenities of home like a full kitchen, shower, pool, laundry. Those are all perks few offices have so you could differentiate your company if you had them.

Eating home cooked food fresh instead of microwaving it

My house has a microwave, and I get good use of it!

I love the microwave though.

Microwaving cooks food without generating as much carcinogenic char as other methods, so it can actually be healthier.

Relatedly, freezing is the healthiest way to preserve and transport fruits and vegetables. It also allows them to be harvested when naturally ripe, rather than artificially ripened.

Alternatively, use something like https://www.pantelligent.com/ (disclosure: co-founder / engineer) so you can control cooking temperatures. This lets you get delicious browning without the non-tasty and non-healthy burnt "char" bits.

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Only comes in non-stick? That's no bueno.

Microwaving cooks food without generating as much carcinogenic char as other methods, so it can actually be healthier.

Since the microwave is often used for reheating food that was cooked with these other methods, there's often no advantage.

Sure, and it's often used to heat up things like Hot Pockets. For this reason and scary radiation, the microwave is heaped with undeserved disrepute. This is unfortunate for another big reason: it's one of the most convenient ways for a single person to cook a small amount of healthy food. Many people are under the impression that healthy cooking requires warming up the stove/oven and dirtying pans, so they give up and eat processed food.

There ought to be more awareness of recipes for the microwave. Many restaurants are using them to good effect.

My point was that if I fry or BBQ something and then later reheat it in the microwave, the damage was already done, so the fact that the microwave is safe does me no good. I agree that the microwave is a cleaner way to cook vegetables, for example.

Call me when a microwave can create the tasty maillard reaction that's needed for so many foods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

There's this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convection_microwave , but I'd rather stick to flavoring my food in some way other than generating a bunch of carcinogens like acrylamide.

And using your own private bathroom.

Forgot about that, it's wonderful to be able to use my own bathroom instead of thinking about which co-workers sat on the toilet before me or did they have a contagious disease, etc.

Access to kitchen is golden. You can steam, stir fry, use conventional oven, all great options to a healthy meal.

> No one can come to my desk to socialize

Yeah who would want that? I've done both and both have their pros and cons, socializing is definitely a perk and introvert or extrovert should not be underestimated in keeping you healthy and happy and a skilled professional.

You answered your own question. An introvert would not want that. You can force your standards of what makes someone a "happy and skilled professional" on them if you like, but that's not always a case grounded in reality.

As an introvert, I like a little bit of socialization throughout my day. Too much is certainly draining, but if I worked from home I would become a hermit and have an unhealthy amount of socialization.

Exactly. I feel like as an introvert it's more important to be in an environment where you regularly meet people since you won't do it intentionally. Socializing skills are important for the vast majority of people, the only exceptions being celebrities like Linus who have lots of people seeking them out.

I am an introvert and occasionally miss the forced socialization of working in an office. After long periods of working from home, I'm usually ready for some office work.

I personally miss some human interaction after long periods of time at home, but not office interaction. It works for me to break up my schedule to socialize with my wife, friends and family to properly quell those feelings.

I work in a creative field (commercial post-production) so those social interactions at work often influence the work we do individually. It often starts with asking for a critique on what someone is working on or help solving a problem that rolls into a social conversation or vice-versa ("since you're here, take a look at this").

Bouncing ideas off co-workers is what I miss most about working in an office.

If you get your work done more efficiently, you actually have more time to socialize, with the people of your choosing.

Also, socializing in the workplace tends to be very superficial, because you're extremely limited in the range of topics you can discuss. God forbid that you say something unprofessional.

Weird places you worked in. Where I worked I could talk about anything I wanted and that's normal for every other office.

Actually that isn't normal at all. Have you worked in any companies larger than 10 people? There are legal liabilities employers have to (or are supposed to) uphold and more so for public companies. Starting with this: http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-sex.html

Helps to be in a third world country. Sometimes I realize we have so much more freedom.

And yes, doesn't matter the company size. Ofc there are different situations but I always feel like people have a too broad definition of harassment.

Going a bit off topic, I know that's not the popular view in the western world, but I think you should fend for yourself in society and we are over reliant on rules and regulations, and then people complain about lacking freedom.

Dirty jokes are off limits if you want to avoid sexual harassment complaints.

If you don't have any choice in the people you work with and you can't find topics to discuss due to the strictness of conversational rules at your job, the problems at your workplace run far deeper than can be solved by going remote.

I enjoy socializing, but I do not enjoy socializing when I'm trying to work.

> socializing is definitely a perk

No, it's not. It is a hindrance to the reason you are there, which is to get a job done.

I do not wish to socialize at work, I do not wish to work when I socialize.

I don't know. I'm an introvert but having nice people to socialize and make friends with is one of the key parts of being happy at my job. And if I'm happy I'm more productive.

You're wrong to say this, but not because your opinion isn't valid. Many jobs get done much faster and better through the process of professional socialization. If you'd be working alone anyway, then you're likely right, but most jobs aren't completely isolated and having an actual team to be a part of is 100% beneficial.

I started my career working in an office, then spent about 10 years working from home, and am now in an office again. The flexibility of telecommuting is a benefit that can't be overstated, but I personally find that being in an office I solve problems faster and enjoy my working hours more, as a result of the people around me.

I've telecommuted for a company two time zones away for over six years and have only visited the company's offices twice in that time for less than four days total.

Not being interrupted and everybody defaulting to using e-mail for communications has to be the best benefit of it besides not having to commute.

Same here. I often work to loud music. Loud like a pair of old JBLs at 50W per channel. I usually work in a bathrobe or sweats. And I abhor meetings, unless I'm billing at a decent rate.

Also, I totally don't get the complaints about loneliness and isolation. I have the company of family and friends. And I distinguish firmly among clients, coworkers and friends.

How long do you do it? I think it's different in your first year and your tenth.

You only explain the benefits from the workers point of view. What about the customer? Why should someone opt to buy work from remote employees instead of having them on-site?

And you lose all social interactions. I enjoy people stopping by my desk and having random chat with them.

While you're in the middle of diagnosing an important issue in production? While you're working out a tricky graph algorithm?

Having some social interaction is nice. The problem is that there are too many people who'll stop by and initiate social interaction while you're in the middle of something more important. What's worse, in an open plan office like mine, your flow isn't just disrupted by people stopping by at your desk. Your flow is interrupted by people stopping by at any of your neighbors desks. God forbid you sit next to a PM who has foot traffic coming and going at all hours of the workday.

For me the best working situation would be an office (doesn't have to be big) with a door that closes. After that comes working at home. Finally, at the bottom, is working in an open plan office (which is unfortunately my current situation).

Get a big pair of comfy headphones, one that you can wear for hours, and put them on whenever you don't want to be bothered. You don't even have to listen to music, they're just there to signal that you're not to be bothered. If someone does bother you, pull one side off, say you're busy, send an email or come back after X-o'clock. Wait for an acknowledgement then pull the ear cup back and go back to work.

Only break protocol for your boss's boss, even then only accept one sentence from him, give one sentence back, and unless the office is on fire say you're deep into Y and you'll stop by later to discuss. When you do stop by, make sure to mention that interrupting you like he did is not pleasant and request he use Slack or whatever instant messager your company uses.

Your boss can just learn to use email. It may take a few discussions before he'll respect it but it'll be worth it. Send anyone who complains a link to Paul Graham's Maker's Schedule, Manager's Schedule.

My last 2 years as a remote worker (from east coast for a SV company) have been the most productive in terms of software output in my life. I've been able to focus on the task at hand very well, and have been given pretty free reign to work on some large projects crucial to the company's product.

The most difficult part was having to deal with a dead-weight VP of Engineering (my boss) who had no process, knowledge, who could not think on his feet in person or over the phone. I had to talk to the CEO and product management to understand the next evolution they wanted, and to actively thwart fruitless conversations and diversions from the boss. I asked for wikis, better bug-trackers, or other tools to better coordinate documentation and work. Finally, after a new CEO and after the VP Engineering was fired about four months ago, things have improved. We immediately followed through on Confluence (great wiki for organizing and documenting engineering and other efforts), JIRA (OK bug tracker), transitioned to git with Bitbucket. Communication and recording of designs, etc., has improved a lot. The new VP Engineering hired a month ago has improved things more -- he's rational, understands the technology, is good at organizing effort, and doesn't asked stoopid questions. I no longer venture into inappropriate and unprofessional phone behavior, which I resorted to many times previously out of frustration.

I regretted so many times joining the company, and knew from my initial interview discussions with the VP Engineering that I shouldn't have joined in the first place. The salary and options were too good to pass up, though, and the problem addressed was interesting enough. I also knew others in the company and thought it might be fun working there. I spent many late nights working on stuff for a boss who could not appreciate the magnitude of what was being requested and delivered.

I also spent many late nights repeatedly diagnosing scalability and performance problems that were not my own but rather in a few modules I had to invoke. Even after being presented with clear evidence in myriad in-house and customer cases this prior boss could not clearly grasp the urgency of fixing the issues. The issue was live at customer sites for over eight months before they were finally fixed.

So ...:

  - I miss SV friends after my move to the Southeast and haven't quite found "my people" here yet ... so I feel somewhat isolated

  - I work very effectively and don't take liberties with schedule, but I don't overwork either unless there's an urgent issue

  - I get to work from home or from a local coffeeshop, restaurant, or other venue -- I like this freedom

  - I get to do a lot of my daughter's events in daytime, nobody's looking over my shoulder

  - ... all these pros/cons were heavily dominated, though, by one big negative -- make sure you can get along with your boss, which wasn't my case

  - why didn't I jump ship?  it's hard to find another remote gig, and my terms were, I believe, pretty decent;  the company has a chance of doing something decent and being worth something -- largely due to product area, C-level reputation, good sales -- the product has some shortcomings that will eventually be overcome

[edit: minor changes, formatting]

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