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Comment by joe_the_user | Hacker News Reader

Hmm,

When I read this, it seemed like there was a disconnect between the out-sourcing trend and this desire for more computer geeks.

Interestingly, when I recently read BLS website on programmer jobs prospects, they projected a decrease. You can find a reference to this projection here: http://education-portal.com/articles/Mastercam_Programmer_Jo...

But now, the very recently updated BLS website paints a rosy picture.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm

Woo, spooky. Maybe the BLS is listening to darpa at least... WTF!

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Weird, reading more carefully, the BLS projects more software engineers but fewer programmers. Fooled me since personnel directors are the only people I've heard distinguish the two job types.

I think software engineers are generally jobs that require a B.S. Programmers might simply be someone with an A.S. or no college doing non-complex programming tasks. Much of this work is being outsourced.

I've heard the distinction as "software engineering is a creative profession, requiring professionals to exercise a large degree of judgment in building working systems from ambiguous requirements. Programmers take an existing spec and then translate that into code."

I'm not sure how useful this distinction is, as every job I've held had highly ambiguous requirements and a lot of trade-offs involved in building a working system from them. It kinda makes me wonder though - a colleague who'd been a PM at both Google and Microsoft said the difference was "Microsoft expects PMs to produce a spec that's thrown over the wall to engineers, who throw it back if there's any ambiguity. Google expects their engineers to have opinions about the product and to resolve most of the details themselves, only consulting the PM if there's something big where they need additional data." I wonder if Microsoft hires programmers and Google hires software engineers?

I wonder if Microsoft hires programmers and Google hires software engineers?

I don't think that's a fair assessment of the developers themselves. I would write it up to differences in product release mentality -- it takes a different mindset to put bits in a box vs a web server.

I've always hated this attempted separating of the roles of programmer and software engineer. You are taking people best suited to programming and giving them the job of creating a specification which is then given to lower paid code monkeys proficient in Java to churn it out.

I'd kind of cheapens the craft when people look at it in this way, my AI lecturer last year was describing the different roles in creating an AI system and saying that that the job you want is a knowledge engineer is the position you want and the programmer is just a nobody who translates it all into code.

I think that you don't often find both software engineers and programmers in the same organization, if that organization subscribes to this distinction. Either you have only software engineers, or you have programmers + software architects.

It also introduces a lot of "friction" and inefficiency into the development process, at least in my experience.

Microsoft calls them "Software Development Engineers".

My recent experience is that "software engineer" ~= manager and "architect", farming programming tasks out to overseas employees.

That's the distinction: We in the U.S. are (supposedly) going to retain management (and maybe design) while outsourcing the "lower level" work.

I originally continued with a longer comment, but it summarizes to: "Good luck with that."

I've had things like "management will stay onshore" and "capital work will stay onshore" given to me too. Given that at least in India, there's a career path from programmer to tech manager to ... and in the US there isn't, I don't see how "management" and/or "design" will stay onshore.

My only option is to believe that "management/design stays onshore" is a way to keep current mid-level managers from pulling the ripcord right now, and at least getting all the programming and the technical managers offshore before everyone below director-level wises up.

Some of my thoughts run similarly. Where are senior people going to come from, given that they need to grow from junior positions. If you are eliminating junior positions domestically, the answer seems obvious.

Mhm, maybe there is a disconnect between what is good for the nation and who profits from that out-sourcing trend? (No offense to non-US hackers.)

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