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Comment by nailer | Hacker News Reader

> 13 years from starting to going public, so those of you who join a startup going on its 4th year, something to keep in mind

Atlassian started in Australia, a country where technology is generally considered a scam to separate idiots from their wallets. This significantly slowed down growth, and the founders have said they wished the company had left Australia sooner.

Edit: this went from +2 to -2 very quickly. For anyone unfamiliar with Australian technology industry, here's a reference for Atlassian CEO comments: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/557248/atlassian-ceo...

The Australian government also taxes employee options in such a way to make them non-viable: http://www.techworld.com.au/article/535906/what_atlassian_mo...

My own experience working in Australia (as an Australian) in innovative technology was extreme wariness of tech: it's an expense, not an investment. Local companies were cynical of technologies, even mainstream technologies in the US and UK, until there was at least one other Australian company using them.

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The CEO's comments about 457 requirements reminded me of my recent experience working in Sydney on a 457. Not having access to the public health system was annoying (though luckily not too expensive because my family was generally healthy). What really annoyed me was having to pay the Medicare tax every fortnight, then claiming it back at the end of the year when I filed taxes. I don't like giving an interest-free loan to the government. Either give me access to the system, or don't tax me because you know I can't use Medicare!

The changes to LAFHA policy would have affected me very dramatically had my employer not given me a large raise to cover the difference. It completely boggles my mind that while I was paying the same tax as an Australian citizen, I had to pay out-of-pocket for my daughter's education (this was a NSW thing but is slowly spreading to other states). The mediocre local public school was $5k per child, so I spent $10k instead and sent her to a great private school.

It is clear to me that the Australian government is only interested in soaking foreign workers for as much as they could get away with. They clearly are not interested in anything other than digging stuff up out of the ground and selling it.

Paperwork-wise, either you have never met France, either you didn't compare.

- Flat rental applications contain 2 years of tax return forms, 3 months of salary proof, for yourself and for a third person (or bank) who will guarantee you.

- As a self employed there are 18 different organizations to whom I must lodge contributions: VAT, retirement, retirement 2, training, universal income, disability, elderness 1, elderness 2, elderness 3, illness, health insurance, health insurance 2, workplace safety, help for housing, help for various institutions who went bankrupt, Commerce chamber, CSG, corporate tax, land tax. Employed people pay the same, plus unemployment, the employer handles half the paperwork but employees who don't cross-check are penalized.

- Each of them have an application form and half of them are monthly. Most of them apply on weird rules ("7.23% on 98.5% of revenue within limit of 1200 PASS if the revenue is ... and 1400 PASS if ..."). Some of them are taken, but don't give you benefits because you don't fit the rules (as you talked about pumping money from workers). Some are taken and refunded later.

- There are lunch tickets and holiday grants, for about 200€ per month, your employer must fund the employee bureau for this, but you need to apply to get them granted. Most usually you'll have to lodge an application for that, with your tax return and salary sheet, and you'll have fewer benefits if you don't have children. For example you'll be offered a rebate on a house rental for 5 people, which exactly fits the family of the employee managing the appcations.

- If you were a foreigner, you would also have to file for a visa and work permit, which means in average 0,5 day per trimester queuing in person at the Prefecture for various reasons.

A co-worker recently moved from France to the US after living for decades over there so I'll have to ask his opinion ;)

A counterpoint: I moved to France with my family this year, and work as a self-employed developer while bootstrapping my own company.

- our landlord wanted to see a tax return from the previous year and three months' bank statements. No guarantee required. Our tenancy is for three years, before which the landlord cannot terminate it, but we can with 3 months' notice at any time. Renting was easy and cheap, and comes with a great deal of security.

- our new bank wanted a LOT of information about us, and some 70 pages of documentation. But now it's set up I can email or phone them and get an instant response from someone that knows me and my family (and speaks fluent English to boot). Their online systems are considerably better than my previous UK bank's.

- Registering for self-employment was entirely online and took 20 minutes.

- I fill out a social security return quarterly, which takes ~45 seconds, and all of the calculations are handled for me.

- We pay more tax than in the UK. But the state also pays for 85% of our childcare costs, and credits half of the remainder against our income tax bill.

- When I needed to check on our residence tax status, I rolled up at our local tax office where I was seen within 2 minutes by a friendly official who had immediately called all our details up on his computer, showed me what I needed to know and told me everything was in hand. (It was.)

It's not perfect. Being an employer is seriously not fun. Self-employment has its issues too. But it seems to be getting better, and by and large the systems work. (Probably because there are huge numbers of people running them.)

Where do you live, and what is your bank? That certainly doesn't sound like a Parisian experience.

Crédit Agricole. It probably helps that we're in the provinces (the Perigord).

yeah, but France is a broken country when it comes to bureaucracy. Some aspects, like education seem to be in very good shape, but the system overall is repulsive.

One example out of blue - when you have a property (probably not your primary residence) and somebody breaks in and starts squatting in it, you cannot just drive them out without providing another accommodation for them. You go to courts, fight for months, and then maybe you're lucky and get your property back.

It's a system that looks social & fair from outside, but as everywhere else, rich gets richer, poor stay poor and are just thrown some bread crumbs to not complain too much.

Er, to get you a 457 your employer has to prove private medical coverage, so...

The best schools in Sydney are the public schools... Went to one of the best public high schools in Sydney. My parents paid $400. At least you're not paying $20k USD/year in SF.

Your comments re tax can be applied to any country in the world (citizens vs residents/temporary residents). The US even has an exit tax on Green Card holders.

You can apply for a withholding exemption.

No, the visa holder is required to provide proof of private medical insurance (which costs more than your standard private insurance). My employer did not pay for this policy.

The local middle school in my suburb was mediocre (north of Hornsby). I'm sure there are others that are much better. (One of) the final straws was when her math teacher gave her a calculator when she continued to ask for help with math. The other was when the principal embarrassed her in front of the entire school assembly because of an technical issue with her uniform.

At the time, I couldn't find any information on withholding exceptions for Medicare tax. It worked out in the end though because we got a large refund for the un-refunded amount as we prepared to leave the country.

We loved our time in Australia, so please don't construe my comments as disparaging the country in general. It was a sad day as we flew away to the US.

If you're on a 457 at NSW, you do have to pay 5k per child, per year for them to be able to attend a public school.

Here is the fee schedule: http://www.detinternational.nsw.edu.au/media-assets/trp/fees...

If you choose to then apply for a PR, you're eligible for a partial refund based on your PR grant date.

By virtue of the fact that Atlassian chose not to list in Australia they have sent a message to government. Turnbull appears to be the kind of prime minister who could make Australia more tech-friendly, so fingers crossed.

The best option for a rising tech company in Australia remains, unfortunately, to purchase outright a flailing listed mining company and invert, a la 1999. This is where the "scammy" feel of listed tech companies comes from.

Begging a vulture capitalist who is owned by the far right of his party for help seems a bit silly.

Nevertheless, on this particular point, there is more reason to be optimistic about Turnbull than the last 3 prime ministers.

Malcom Turnbull is the guy who, for purely political purposes, messed up the planned upgrade of our absolutely terrible internet infrastructure. Now instead of having fibre, we have a bunch of crappy technologies that supposedly will also cost more and take longer to roll out.

> Atlassian started in Australia, a country where technology is generally considered a scam to separate idiots from their wallets.

Perhaps ironically, when I was in Australia a few weeks back, every merchant assumed my credit card supported NFC.

They got a kick out of my explanation that American credit cards just finally caught up with Smart Chips, and now Australia has moved on.

I'm in the opposite situation - recently moved back to the US after many years living abroad. Not having Chip & Pin or those neat wireless card terminals is weird. Signing for everything just feels so archaic!

I paid for something at Walgreens with my iPhone today via ApplePay, and a middle aged woman stopped me and asked why the cashier just let me go. The idea of paying for something with a cell phone was not within her ability to comprehend. That it was safer than using a swiped credit card was so far beyond the pale that I think it gave her vapors.

I live in Canada but visit the US at least once a year. Nearly every grocery store and restaurant has NFC terminals now.

We're constantly blocked from access to great online content and we can't order products from the US without great expense. But the moment I step foot on US soil and try to buy something, I feel like I'm in the credit card dark ages.

It's funny, we have all these NFC credit card terminals, but Apple Pay still hasn't launched here.

> It's funny, we have all these NFC credit card terminals, but Apple Pay still hasn't launched here.

I mean, "it can do the same thing your free debit card could two years ago" is kind of a weak marketing pitch, so maybe that's why they're not prioritizing it...

Instant payments. It takes 0-4 seconds, no pin, everyone saves time

Yeah, so, like, the same as contactless credit/debit cards, only it can run out of battery

Yes, in Canada virtually every major bank issued debit or credit card for the last several years has supported NFC. There's different branding depending on the card - Interac Flash (debit), visa paywave, etc. But all use the same terminals.

No PIN, tap and go, no batteries.

With little user benefit, I'm assuming banks are reluctant to sign on to give apple a cut.

Oh yeah, many places accept NFC cards. However most (anecdotally) banks do not issue cards with NFC support.

My old Amex Blue supported NFC 4-5 years ago, which was super rad. None of my current cards, however do.

Been in NZ for just over 4 years. The AU/NZ banking system is way out ahead of the US in my experience. Instant acct-acct transfers even on weekends. Hourly posting for bank to bank transfers. Better online experiences. Most of the big banks, and kiwibank, offer good free expense tracking and budgeting software ala mint.. I really hate having to deal with my US accounts :|

Do you know a free way to transfer cash from aus bank to nz bank?

I want to buy from www.lastseason.co.nz without getting stung.

Australia and NZ have different currencies so there is no way you can avoid dealing with the money changers. There was a bit of debate a few years back about if Australia and NZ should form a single currency, but it did not seem to get far.

https://transferwise.com/u/0aa62 will do it for $5ish. That's my referral link.

Edit: BankWest in Australia has a no-conversion-fee Mastercard.

OzForex? CurrenciesDirect? There are many similar exchange agents: You transfer to their bank account of country 1, they transfer from their local bank account in country 2, avoiding international transfer fees. Few days, less than 1% away from the Google rate, unbeatable.

Depends how much you want to move :)

I used Tranferz a few times when I moved from Aus to the US. Free for over $5000 last time I checked.

http://www.tranzfers.com/Referral/matthodge

Even here in the banana republic called Thailand I can do instant transfers from my account in one bank to my own or someone else's account in another bank. I can do it by phone, at an ATM or online. I too loathe interacting with my US bankings.

BTW, any issues or threats by your US bank to close your account because your are living abroad? It's going around.

My account keeps getting deactivated because I don't make purchases from it with a debit card or check; I have to call online services and have it reactivated every few months :(

And yet you guys have Apple Pay and we don't. It's "coming real soon" to the three shopfronts in the country that still take Amex.

Sadly very few places support Apple Pay. And some credit cards make it a royal PITA to use with AP.

The thing is in Australia, we have near ubiquitous support for contactless payments so when Apple Pay launchs here it'll be supported _everywhere_ on day one[1]

[1] Well, the tech will be supported. Whether the business will accept amex or not is another story...

With [the absolutely fantastic] Paywave / Paypass now just about completely ubiquitous here in Australia, and supported by a good few smart phones to boot, why on earth would we want Apple Pay? They've truly missed the boat here.

>why on earth would we want Apple Pay

If you are an iPhone user, and many folks happen to own iphones, that would be the reason.

The credit card companies here will send you an NFC chip to stick on your phone cover if you are into that sort of thing.

The main advantages are security (you can't use a card without a TouchID fingerprint scan to unlock) and being able to easily use multiple cards on the one device.

The second user advantage is a drawback to most banks (they'd rather you carry just their card, rather than be able to switch easily), so that might also be a contributing reason for not signing up for Apple Pay.

We (Aus) and especially NZ (due to population size / spread I assume) are often the testing ground for tech advancements like this. Once proven and stable, they are rolled out to the rest of the world.

In this case I think it's more that there are only 4 banks in Aus so making a change like chip cards is much less like herding cats than it is in the US.

It's not that simple, and Australians love to paint the country as a backwater when it's not. It's hard for a lot of B2B businesses all over the place to get that first customer. And Australians go for tech as much as anyone else - as someone else mentions, NFC is way ahead of the US (as was chip and pin). Similarly polymer money was adopted very early here. Tired of being treated like a backwater given media release cycles, the general public adopted torrenting like a duck to water.

And then there are regressive forces like the last PM, who gutted science funding in permanently damaging ways.

It's a complex picture, but I think it's unfair to say Australians shy away from tech. Tech startups are harder here because of both government red tape and small market size, but that doesn't mean there's no real appetite for tech here. And frankly, given how much people here on HN say employee options are worthless, it's not the Australian regulations on options that would be holding anything back.

Australian are rapid adopters of tech, except for those who happen to be CTO’s or CEO. There is a real cultural cringe towards anything Australian when it comes to technology. I just wish we could get to the point where we think of Australian tech in the same way as we think of Australian sport.

My one positive is things today are nowhere near as bad as they were 15 years ago when I started. We have a great base of talent and with a little government support I could see Australian’s getting over their cringe.

The biggest problem is the very small market. Tech needs a big market to support it due to the sheer expense of it. Aus + NZ is only 25 million people - the nearest masses of humanity are a full workday's flight away. Compare to the US, Europe, or south / east Asia itself.

Small markets can be good while you are starting out as it allows you to make sure you are able to achieve high penetrance at relatively low cost. In a large market you don’t really know how broad an appeal your product has until quite late in the process.

With no industry other than "digging things up", extremely expensive and slow internet, and large family homes all over the middle of the city, it is pretty indisputable. All you have mentioned is that, yes, our banks and government can adopt technologies quicker than other countries that are much larger.

Those people you deride as 'digging things up' also really push the envelope when it comes to tech. Both the mining and agricultural sectors are lapping it up. I used to work for an agricultural telemetry startup and there's a ton of interest in the sector - depictions of farmers as backwood yokels who are fearful of technological change are bad stereotypes.

Yes, the internet here is expensive and slow. You can thank the current government for it's intentional blocking of better infrastructure there. But just because the internet is comparatively slow here doesn't mean that the country is a backwater overall. The internet in the US is amazingly fast... if you're in the right spot. It's fucking awful if you're in a bad spot. Yet we don't paint the US as a technological backwater.

> Atlassian started in Australia, a country where technology is generally considered a scam to separate idiots from their wallets

sorry, can you explain this further? i don't know much about australia but this seems strange for a 'western' country, especially one in the british commonwealth.

Working in the UK for the last 7 years, for both US-based and British companies, and Oz before that for the previous 9.

Australia's wealth is from its natural resources. Originally farming, then gold, coal, oil, and uranium. Britain has some natural resources in the North sea, but London has been a centre of intellectual wealth for hundreds of years: before there were startups, there were the Rothschild's, banks, and every other kind of trader. Man Group started the first hedge fund in the world in London 200 years ago based on storms affecting the sugercane crop for their Royal Navy rum contract. Australia is still at the selling sugarcane stage.

So while the UK is a little more cynical than the US, it still appreciates the value can be created intellectually because it has that history. Australia doesn't, because money is made by digging things up and selling them. I met and worked with some incredibly talented technical people in Oz - Damien from BSD/ipfw, Skud from Perl, lots of SA folk from Usenix - but the general business community is very wary of tech.

"i don't know much about australia but this seems strange for a 'western' country, especially one in the british commonwealth."

There are key difference b/w the US, UK and Aus (native speaker here) with respect to business. I perceive the US as risk-takers with access to deregulated finance. The UK is risk-adverse with sophisticated finance. In Aus we have a combination of risk aversion and what I'll term, "dumb-money".

A story on innovation in Australia by ABC's "The Science Show" made a comparison between the attitude to entrepreneurs in Israel & US vs Australia. In Israel & US it was viewed as a positive thing for an entrepreneur to have had 3 failed ventures as the 4th is more likely to succeed due to the experience gained in the previous ventures. In Australia it is viewed as a negative because past failures are predictive of the future.

Yes it is crazy to run a technology company in Australia [1]. The problems are many and advantages (outside of lifestyle) few.

1. http://www.tillett.info/2015/06/24/why-i-kept-my-startup-in-...

Well there was that article recently by Matt Barrie (Freelancer CEO) that took a jab at Sydney's lockout laws as one reason that (young, enterprising, tech-focused) people don't want to stay here. He claimed that the inability to find fun and exciting places at all hours of the night was driving some people away from living here (in Sydney) as compared to places like London or New York (with a more bustling night scene).

Well I am bit too old to be worried about lockout laws, but it is my understanding that they just apply to a fairly limited area and there are heaps of places that are not affected.

I think a bigger issue is the ludicrous rents. We are paying SF/NYC/London rents, but wages for developers are not anywhere near the level they are in these cities. We do have very nice beaches and fantastic weather - today is just perfect in Sydney.

Yeah, I guess it affects someone like me (or younger) more. It does only affect a small area of the city, but that part now becomes dead after midnight, and the problems that used to be encountered have just shifted to other neighbourhoods.

I actually think we are paying more in rent than the cities mentioned. The only place where I can think of higher rent is in SF.

The only thing more crazy than rents in Sydney is the house prices.

`My own experience working in Australia (as an Australian) in innovative technology was extreme wariness of tech: it's an expense, not an investment.`

Imagine working in Security. 'Yes, this costs money and will bring in zero revenue for your company...'

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