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Comment by miclip | Hacker News Reader

Similar issue in Sausalito above the Bridge. Wolfback Ridge Rd is a publicly maintained road yet they have a gate and sign that says otherwise. It is strictly enforced by Sausalito Police on behalf of residents. There's some great short hikes up there that offer excellent views of the Golden Gate Bridge and headlands.

Even google didn't dare go up there: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8512481,-122.4911711,3a,75y,...

Granted you can hike up Sunrise trail from the next exit but it's a tough hill for the elderly. Friend of mine got one of those hard to remove stickers put on their car for taking her mother up there.

If you ask the city they'll spin crap but confirm that it's open to public when pushed for an answer. If you drive up there guaranteed someone will confront you and the police will show up soon after.

Taxpayer funded gated community for the politically connected.

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I was really curious about that, as I live in southern Marin and have wanted to go up that road before. Are you sure it's a public road though?

I found this: http://sausalito.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=2&clip_...

On page 2, there's a line that says, "Wolfback Ridge Road is a private road maintained by the Wolfback Ridge Association, a neighborhood homeowner’s association (see Exhibit R for Association information)"

I can't find exhibit R, but the person who sent it appears to be a resident of Wolfback Ridge, leading me to wonder how legit the info is.

I have emails from the city saying otherwise, I'll try and dig them up. I believe it's publicly maintained as it was resurfaced along with the rest of the town a couple years back when we lived there.

I also doubt the Wolfback Ridge Association paid for the bridge over highway 101 that's exclusive to them. There are radio towers (SFO?) up there but you can access along the fire roads from Tennessee Valley.

Edit:

Found it, response from Director of Public Works:

Not as simple a question as you might think… Short answer is that a portion of Wolfback Ridge Road is publically-maintained. For purposes of hiking, you and anyone else can probably access from the State of California right-of-way (at US 101) to the trails at the top of the pass anytime and not have an issue. Vehicular access is restricted at certain times of the year by Sausalito PD – Fleet Week and the Fourth of July based on lack of parking, lack of adequate circulation and inadequate turn-around. If you want more legal details, let me know – I’m researching the area for a development application anyway…it may take awhile though.

They have a point regarding events but if you park where he suggests you'll run into issues.

Oh, I'd love to see those emails if you can dig them up, thank you! If I'm confident that it's a public street, I'm going to go hang out on that street.

Awesome, thanks!

There's also "The location of the current gate to the Ridge is on state-owned property, and because of the width of the road and lack of adequate turnaround space" from

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:g9QMap...

More interesting is Fritz Warren, although the person in question may be his son:

In later life, as a property owner and builder on Wolfback Ridge in Sausalito, he worked to conserve that area in his capacity as Sausalito councilman and mayor in the 1970's and 80's, as an early board member of the Sausalito Historical Society, and as a longtime Rotarian.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/marinij/obituary.aspx?pid=1...

I think a rich ex-councilman and former mayor would have quite a bit of sway if that was the case.

IANAL but it looks like the story is more complicated then a simple public or private. This tax plot seems to show the road past the gate to the sharp bend IS public, but after the sharp bend their is no road easement recorded, the property lines go right to the middle of the road making it like a private shared driveway:

http://www.marinmap.org/Planner/queryRM.aspx?PID=064-276-22

And there is the additional complication of no place to turn around at the end of the public road so for safety cars have been limited to not travel past the gate.

I believe the whole road is maintained by the city. If it's a private road the residents should pay for it.

At the top of the hill before the bend there is adequate space to turn around if that is where the gate should be.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wolfback+Ridge+Rd,+Sausali...

The road at the top is also a loop.

I emailed Jonathon Goldman, the Dir. of Public Works and got a response. He wrote:

Good afternoon. Here's a short answer from MarinMap (attached). The pieces of roadway that have no zoning, are inside the City Limits (the red dashed line) and have no parcel boundaries crossing them are generally public right of way. Roads that transit parcels with a solid color (and are therefore not as visible on the attached), or have parcel boundaries across them or near the centerline are private and not publically-maintained. Wolfback Ridge Road, for example, has a public right of way part between US 101 and APN 064-276-22 (owned by the Marin Municipal Water District), a part that lies outside the City Limits and parts on private properties. Happy to try to answer any more specific questions. At some point, a land surveyor would be necessary to sort that all out.

The graphic he references is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hcsaclyxglbn1ih/Wolfback%20Zoning....

Honestly, I still can't tell which parts really are public and which parts aren't.

It's clear that it's city-owned at least to the intersection of the trail and the road that continues on towards the radio station (i.e. the westernmost sharp turn). At some point, the road "disappears" behind the yellow parcel, but that's much further down the road.

So, if you can see the road, especially if it's in the city limits (red dotted line), it's public land.

Same guy I spoke to. He said you could drive and access the trail head which is right where the fire trail for the Radio towers is, first sharp left turn.

People still have issues doing that though. My wife reminded me this evening that she was confronted walking down the hill. It's nuts.

Wow. Well, I'm definitely heading over there to push the issue at some point. Fuck those guys.

Well the legal status of the road certainly seems to have a complicated history, tied up with a very large failed development project in the 60s called Marincello:

http://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/3d/44...

http://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/3d/12...

Isn't it unlawful for the police to stop you under these conditions (peacefully using a public road without any suggestion of criminal activity or intent)?

Surprised that no-one would do this with recording equipment and then sue for unlawful arrest or whatever, or have they?

When I lived there it irritated me a great deal, not that I minded hiking up the hill but the residents are very aggressive. They'll stop you if you even walking along the road, that kind of thing gets me worked up.

I thought about confronting the issue but figured I don't need to waste my time or money on such endeavors.

Welp, I know what I'm doing this weekend. This sounds like fun.

I would fund that project in a split second. Best of luck to you!

Holy cow. Anyone want to organize a mass bike ride or hike there?

I would join everyone, but given the stories I'm hearing, I wouldn't feel safe without afirearm ready and California has repealed open carry [ 1 ], so we'll just have to let this one go to the town.

[ 1 ] http://www.shouselaw.com/open-carry.html

There are organized trail races in that area. Whenever I'm in the Bay Area I always look for races there. One of the most spectacular locales I've ever had the pleasure of being at. I'm always in the back of the pack but with those views, I don't mind so much.

Example with photos from a race I did there in 2013: http://stevetursi.blogspot.com/2013/09/rr-san-francisco-50-m...

The Bing driver was more bold:

https://www.bing.com/mapspreview/?&cp=37.848938~-122.49187&l...

What an awesome view

Great views. Recommend this hike for the views of Sausalito\Angel Island at the top of Morning Sun, the bridge\city along the way and at the top to Slacker Hill.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.8531329,-122.4934891/37.8...

>>> Friend of mine got one of those hard to remove stickers put on their car for taking her mother up there.

What did they put on her car?

It's a sticker that gets put on your window. They're very hard to remove.

http://www.myparkingpermit.com/Parking-Violation-Stickers/No...

Those stickers should be illegal. It's pettiness at its worst.

Edit: illegal to use on people's cars/property that is.

In BC people have sued the police and won for "property damage" when the police put chalk on their tires, so I'm pretty sure the same would apply for this sticker.

I'm not a lawyer and definitely not a lawyer in "almost everywhere", but it is surely illegal in almost everywhere with western-style property rights? Especially if it left residue after the fact. On the other hand, who is going to take this to court? These are largely one-off tourists who won't have a vested interest in the matter after tomorrow.

People are very possessive about the state of their car's exterior, imagine someone sticking one of these on a high end car.

Also, it sounds to me the area is not actually a "no parking" area - it is at least conceivable the court's interpretation would be different if the claim were true. Residents are painting the curbs themselves.

Not a lawyer either, what I've read about street art in Germany is basically: if it leaves residue (physical changes your object) = property damage, if it's easy to remove without a trace = no case.

Which is why a lot of street artists swapped the can for painted paper and water-soluble glue.

Or, related to cars: hard to remove stickers = property damage, some chalk on the tires or shaving foam on the hood = no case, deal with it.

I'd argue it's already illegal, to me it's vandalism for someone to place a sticker that needs to be scratched off potentially damaging the window.

But who will you complain to? Sausalito Police? Marin County Sheriff?

Small claims court. Set up a dashcam or gopro so you can get them on camera, and identify where they go back to.

Unless you are these fellas:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMrKscEv_Ri1pvlRsLxsqJQ

Their stickers are easy to remove, so it's not the same thing.

Oh, they switched to harder-to-remove ones at some point, because douchebags tended to remove them and continue following their douchy ways of behaviour.

A hard-to-remove sticker that takes up a third of the windshield is a really great idea IMO; all the "Putinjugend's" issues aside, I think StopXam are doing a great work.

Quite often, recipients of those stickers totally deserve it. I recommend watching some of the videos from the channel 'vermontdevil linked to.

I thought few times about starting something similar in Poland but then I understood StopXam really works only because they're government-backed program, so if someone gets too angry about having half of their windshield covered in a "I don't respect people" stickers, the police will bring him to order quickly.

>> Adhere the label to the side window or windshield. Once stuck onto a window, the warning requires scrapping or a razor blade to remove.

Vandalism, basically.

Government funded stickerbombing for driving on a public(?) road.

I say: good. Drivers as a general category are incredibly hard to keep in order. There's something about cars that makes many people lose their sanity.

"Fluorescent label material gets your attention 75% faster than standard stickers."

I wonder if they were double-blind tests.

One of my very first deployments was to Germany, where we guarded a hospital. People like the colonel's wife would park in the ER drivethrough for up to an hour at a time. Yes, blocking emergency access for any ambulance that might need to come through. I got very butthurt about this and the old sargeant of the guard on duty smiled real big and opened up the bottom drawer of his desk, dug way back in there, and extracted a stack of 8.5x11", bright neon orange, "impossible to remove without fucking up the car window" stickers that said nasty things about parking like an asshole (in German and English). They were very aggressive stickers. But imagine my delight when he told me to stick them on the cars parking in the ER drivethrough. My only rule was that I couldn't put them over the driver's side windshield and block their vision forward. So I started slapping these fat motherfuckers on the driver's side window. Adults wept and threw tantrums when they saw these stickers. The kind of reaction you would expect out of someone that parks where the ambulance needs to go at a hospital when bringing in someone that might be dying.

There are times when these stickers are used for the forces of good, you know.

Edit: I still have about half of that stack of stickers at home. I still only ever use them for the forces of good. :)

A hard-to-remove sticker on the windshield for parking in the wrong place? Won't that guarantee that the car will be staying in that wrong place for a lot longer? It doesn't sound safe to drive with a sticker in the middle of your windscreen.

This is just plain destructive and counterproductive. Use something that's easily noticed but also easily removed.

That's some bullshit. Wow.

same thing happens at the beaches in malibu (all beaches are public land in california).

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