Living and Dying on Airbnb | Hacker News Reader

Living and Dying on Airbnb

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It is horrible what happened to the author's father. But it is also inevitable. Like a morbid million monkeys mashing away on keyboards, operating at scale in meatspace all but guarantees that someone will die whilst using the service.

In America we have become accustomed to guard rails everywhere, and signs announcing the smallest hazards. This is OK so far as it goes, but perhaps it makes us a bit soft. Here we read about a tree swing that fell down when a full grown man used it. At least 90% [1] of tree swings in America are built without professional engineering or even inspection.

I'm not apologizing for the host in this case, but I do think that some people are open to living in a world where not every conceivable danger has been mitigated. The hard part is finding anyone so willing once a freak accident happens to them.

[1] I'm lowballing this estimate so much that it should be obviously true to anyone who grew up in the non-urban US.

could i have resumed your post with "shit happens, sad though." ?

IMO yes, and it would have been a perfectly correct way of putting it, but people are... sensitive about truths like this one, hence the need of an elongated, delicate approach.

You're missing the point. Airbnb does not assume any responsibility when it comes to inspecting the "soundness" of a listed unit, including any means of evaluating very basic things like working fire alarms, interior mold, bed bugs, etc.

I agree that this was something of a freak accident, but that doesn't invalidate the central argument that Airbnb has no real way to ensure even the most basic level of safety of its guests.

Of course they don't. That's why they don't assume any responsibility for it.

So this begs the question...why would any sane human being decide to risk staying at a home with no safety record or proof of fire/mold/bed bug inspection to speak of?

I think potential guests need to be more aware that renting an Airbnb is nothing like booking a hotel subject to rigorous safety standard governed by law. Part of the purpose of this story is to point that out.

Lots of people travel to places outside the US where none of these things can be taken for granted. I think most of them are sane humans.

In 2013 two people died in a Best Western hotel (in the US) due to an improperly and illegally installed water heater. Seven weeks after that, one more person was killed in the exact same way, in the very same room. [1]

Are you sure conventional hotels "ensure" safety?

[1] http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/special-reports/nc-med...

If you really believe the average Airbnb listing is safer than the average hotel room...then you are certainly not a sane human being.

But I too would love to see some objective stats from Airbnb on the number and nature of inbound tickets related to serious safety issues from guests. I doubt we will ever see anything like it.

I have never heard or expected that hotels are especially safe.

If the argument is that _everything_ is inherently caveat emptor and that in many jurisdictions there are no / inefficient regulations and yet people seem to get along "fine" then why regulate anything at all? Open slather! Everything's "at your own risk".

If so, we should all get used to conducting our own safety tests on everything we buy and everywhere we stay? Although, that would be pretty damn inconvenient, wouldn't it? Day-in, day-out, inspecting everywhere we stay, every vehicle we ride in, all the food we eat... and the restaurants we eat them in...

Maybe there's a solution. Perhaps we could hire people to do those inspections for us, and since those inspections would inform everyone, we can communally pay for it with taxes? These people would certify whether something was safe, and ensure everything that was for sale / rent was certified to meet some minimum standard (because of course, otherwise some unscrupulous people might be inclined to lie about being certified.)

Problem solved! I'm a genius. Oh, wait a minute...

I can't work out if the libertarians here are against regulations entirely or just against the ones that affect profits.

I think the primary answer to your question is "because that's exactly the same as the situation in their own home where they live for most of the year".

Is your home inspected and polished to the level of a hotel? If not, why is your concern the one week you spend in a flat that airbnb is connected with?

Because you are at an information disadvantage. I know if my floor is slippery, the smoke detector has a battery in it, if there has been a burning smell from the fridge or the fuses have been tripping.

> freak accident

No, it wasn't. What is more likely: that the tree became structurally unsound overnight, or that it had been like that for a long time, and an inspection had ever been carried out?

Way more likely that no inspection has ever been carried out.

But the freak-nature of this accident still stands. 100,000 people could go find their nearest (un-inspected) tire swing right now and have at it. Maybe 500 would break at that moment. 450 of those would end up in a slight bruise on the ass, another 49 with a broken bone, and one poor soul would die from it.

Limb dropping is not well understood and can happen at any time. There is no inspection that can predict limb drop. No tree rope swing can be assured as safe.

This is the core fact.

Assume airbnb has to go inspect a property before any use by a customer. The tire swing passes. Do they come back once a month/year to re-verify the property is safe? Do they say "Once a man was killed by a tire swing so all tire swings must be removed or using one is not covered by insurance". The 2nd scenario is far more likely.

I too feel sorry for the author but the world is not a perfectly safe place. If anything I think it has become SO safe in many 1st world countries that we are incredibly offended and angered by the rare chance death that occurs from incidents like this and we are searching for someone to blame because then it makes it seem preventable.

How is that different than a tourist office providing you with addresses for nearby bed-and-breakfasts?

My guess is that the bed and breakfasts are permitted, licensed and subject to inspection.

Here's a link from a quick google search:

http://www.co.shasta.ca.us/index/drm_index/eh_index/ehd_prog...

"Permits are required to operate organized camps, hotels, motels, boarding homes, and bed & breakfast establishments in both the County and the cities. The purpose is to administer provisions of the State Housing Law and Health & Safety Code pertaining to the maintenance, sanitation, ventilation, and use or occupancy of residential rental facilities. Inspections are made on an annual basis. An application for a Permit to Operate is to be filed with the EHD along with the appropriate fee."

I don't think it's unreasonable to insist on a difference standard for inspection and compliance once a home is converted into a commercial enterprise.

I agree, but hadn't realised B&B were regulated.

The non-air bed-and-breakfast industry is quoted in the article:

"Had the hosts of the Texas property opted to become part of a community of more traditional B&Bs, they would have encountered a cumbersome but rigorous process, according to the Texas Bed and Breakfast Association’s executive director Connie Hall. “For new members, they are inspected with an overnight stay, and then every two years, our properties are inspected,” she says, covering everything from cleanliness to decor, and ensuring that individual rooms have a deadbolt, smoke detectors are functioning, and landscaping seems safe. “As far as the safety stuff, it’s mandatory for our members that they meet all these criteria,” adds Hall."

You put my thoughts more gracefully than i ever could have.

We have this swing in our family garden: http://i.imgur.com/FsrfdVK.jpg http://i.imgur.com/v6zx0d2.jpg

It has not for over 40 years, but someday it may kill someone. Everyone who steps near it knows this and treats it accordingly. Small children use it, after we do some spring tests that the rope, hooks and wood are fine this year. Adults maybe sit on it, not swinging, careful to keep plenty weights on the feet, just to enjoy the view or catch a breath.

Nobody would even remotely consider blaming anyone if something happened to anyone while using it. The world is a dangerous place and everything done carries some risk.

I don't know whether he did correlate your thoughts. Going by your analogy, it's not the same is it?

You have a very large incentive to ensuring it's safe, your family. An airbnb host might not treat a temporary guest's safety, the same way.

What I got from the skinny of that general article and from all of my experiences at Airbnb is that: You will get the feeling that you would get at living at a family member's house, but you are not in one, ever. Therefore, maybe then, the host's liability should be treated that way, a service provider.

P.S: I intend to keep on using airbnb for the very long foreseeable future.

The point is we don't, except for cursory checks, since we expect and know that anyone going near it has some consciousness of self-responsibility.

you're assuming that children that don't have the ability to exercise some consciousness of self-responsibility are always accompanied by adults that do.

Any case, cool swing dude. I have to get mine replaced and maybe upholster the seat . I too have the board and want to make it more comfortable.

> Nobody would even remotely consider blaming anyone if something happened to anyone while using it.

I think it's all fun and games until emergency bills start coming in. If you ever encounter that situation, the law takes the victim's side, unless you can prove in court of law that reasonable safeguards have been insured

http://www.attorneys.com/personal-injury/slip-and-fall/can-y...

"To win a slip and fall personal injury lawsuit, you need to show that the property owner or tenant was negligent, meaning some action they took or failed to take caused the fall. With such trips, time is usually an important component in proving negligence. For example, how long was the hazard there and was it reasonable to believe that the property owner should have discovered the situation and remedied it before an accident occurred?"

Liability insurance is not exactly a new product, and an agent underwriting it will usually ask questions about swings, trampolines and other items their actuaries deemed relevant.

Of course, once you buy it (for a 12-month period), you'd have to amortize the cost of it in your rental listings, which somewhat removes the price allure.

People slip, fall and suffer under things falling on top of them.

Liability insurance is not exactly a new product. Underwriters that sell it do ask questions about swings, trampolines and other liability-generating items.

A bit sad that this is buried off the HN front page.

There is literally a story with 0 votes submitted an hour later directly above it on the third page, and on the front page there are older stories with fewer votes.

https://twitter.com/newsycombinator tweets about images of the French revolution with fewer votes, but not this, which seems a bit more relevant to tech, startups, sharing economy etc.

Beyond the raw and heartbreaking nature of the author's loss, I am amazed that this story was published on Medium with the participation of Medium staffers. At a time when there is so much criticism of the state of tech writing, it's incredible to see this pseudo-journalistic platform for techies by techies be the channel for such a damning critique of a major tech darling like Airbnb.

If this can be considered "self-critical", then that speaks to the trustworthiness of the "publication".

Uh. Are you suggesting that Medium should never publish anything critical of a tech company because they're part of the tech industry? Because that sounds very sinister to me.

Terrible tragedy. I can definitely see the argument that Airbnb hosts should carry insurance for freak accidents / deaths that occur on their property in cases like this.

Yeah the hosts should assume all liability and pay for cost of freak accident insurance...of course not Airbnb!

Does a newspaper bear responsibility for classifieds they post?

If you're talking about Craigslist...they have a far better warning and flagging system than Airbnb does.

I.e. If you try to buy a car they warn you about possible scams before you can look at the listings. Airbnb certainly does not do enough to proactively warn potential guests that they cannot vet the safety of any unit listed on their website.

Ok. Fair enough.

Probably not much, but it's a silly comparison since newspaper classifieds do not work the same way: It surely helps that the newspaper is not managing the inventory, payment processing, photography, and customer relations on behalf of their sellers.

AirBnB should sell insurance that covers common issues hosts have, or partner with insurance providers, or adjust their % cut a bit and include this insurance for 100% of bookings

It looks more like criminal negligence. Insurance is for things that cannot be foreseen or prevented. This looks more like a case of a missed inspection.

Their residential tree swing inspector must have missed his yearly visit.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but there are people who can be hired to inspect trees to make sure they are healthy and structurally sound. If a host is going to highlight a tree swing as an amenity of a property, then they should should inspect that tree on an annual basis, if only to protect themselves from potential liability issues. In this instance, that would have likely prevented this tragedy.

If it were on a national hotel chain then maybe; but I think with something like that part of the appeal is the freedom it represents. No metal and bolts, just an old tire or piece of wood strapped around a tree branch. I don't think it's reaonable at all to assume it would be inspected. (if you're looking for that kind of security I don't think you'd use airbnb)

I think it's just a tragic accident, yes it could have been prevented, but what accident couldn't be? There are risks everywhere, and trying to remove them all isn't possible or efficient. We go after the low hanging fruit because it saves more lives. If this were carbon monoxide poisoning or a fire (with no smoke detector) I'd be with you blaming the property owners - but this wasn't something they should/could have prevented.

How quaint.

You grew up in the city, right?

No?

Erk... some of the comments here are brutally rational and ruthlessly logical. I would fully expect this narrative from decisioning AI units, not so quickly out of humanoids, at least not yet.

I don't know why your comment annoys me so much, but it does.

What other response could you reasonably expect (or indeed, want)? If there weren't any rational and logical responses to this article, that would be truly saddening.

I can help as to why it is annoying. I felt the same way before typing that out, but still wrote that.

I seriously tried to honestly tell myself whether I would have the same opinion and view, was I in the shoes of the author. Would I be able to rationalize it the same way? Would I be able to marginalize that event to a statistical "nonevent"? I don't think I would.

But I assumed that everyone commenting on it had already exercised that viewpoint, and still shared those views. That is what I would expect of perfect decisioning AI units. That's not a bad thing. I just didn't expect it so early.

What do I think should be the response? Um, well, sue the shit out of the host and by extension the provider, or require insurance by the hosts. The alternative would be that this guest's death is reduced to a reputation negative (statistical nonevent).

I'm on a trip to Taiwan soon... And I booked an Airbnb. Ouch.

As jzwink said, you don't have any guarantees with a hotel either ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10531693 ).

I've had positive experiences every time I rented through AirBnB, the same cannot be said of hotels - I actually trust AirBnB a LOT more than hotels (as long as the property has some reviews).

Maybe in the U.S. things work, but in other countries they don't... I've had the roof leaking BADLY on a hotel in Brazil (with lots of positive reviews in TripAdvisor), all guests' property stolen (also in Brazil), and I never had any recourse. People thinking about starting a lawsuit have never experienced 3rd world judiciary systems... (it can take a lot of time and money for very little returns).

I fully expect you'll have a positive experience with your AirBnB in Taiwan, let's hope so :)

Thanks for posting, it was a interesting, and heartbreaking, read.

An AirBnB mission statement of sorts:

We also stopped trusting each other. And in doing so, we lost something essential about what it means to be a community. After all, our relationships with people

I literally threw up in my mouth when reading that. Your company makes money by renting out rooms by skirting hotel laws and you're wrapping yourself in a flag of "we're getting back to trusting one another!" What about the trust of that you bought into a place that isn't a fly by night hotel next door?

There's a bit of both going on: AirBnB is used by regular people renting out a spare room of a house or apartment they occupy, which sometimes has a vaguely couchsurfing-but-not-free feel to it. But it's also used by fly-by-night hoteliers running illegal hotels and hostels. And lately, it's also used by legal vacation-rental brokers as a competitor to VRBO/Homeaway/etc.

The marketing materials obviously prefer to emphasize the first, but the second category does a lot of volume (the percentage seems to vary heavily by city). What's most annoying as an occasional user is that it's sometimes very difficult to determine which is which: is this someone's spare room (may actually lead to friendly personal interaction, probably won't cause significant problems for the neighbors), is it one of 50 "spare rooms" that this person is operating as a black-market business (impersonal, likely to be contributing to neighborhood social problems), or is it a VRBO-type rental unit just cross-listed on multiple sites' inventory (impersonal, but at least probably legit)? You can sometimes guess by looking at their other listings, but some people split their operation across a bunch of accounts.

AirBnB could probably make life harder for people running the larger-scale operations if they wanted to, emphasizing the site's focus on lodging rented out by regular people, which could bring the site a bit more in line with the marketing copy. But I don't think that's the likely trajectory.

Don't forget the category 1a - regular people renting out a spare room even though it's against terms they themselves rent their flat on. This can sometimes also contribute to the neighbourhood social problems.

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