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Comment by DanBC | Hacker News Reader

> opium is much less addictive

No, opium is highly addictive. It tends to be eaten, drunk, or smoked, not injected, and that route of administration makes a difference. But the actual substance is addictive.

Opium poppies provide their own seeds. A small garden provides plenty of space for small scale opium growing.

If I was in pain I would want a refined quality controlled product. I wouldn't want variable unpredictable doses. I need to be able to function (so too much is bad) and I want to control pain (so too little is bad).

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Having had surgery, and been prescribed mild opiates to deal with the pain, and being on them for a short enough time that I didn't get addicted, if I lived in a free country I would prefer to have a garden with some poppies and some marijuana (as well as hops and barley and grapes and apples…) and make my own medicine, but I'm a crazy DIY-type:-)

But I don't live in a free country, so I mayn't do that.

I knew a guy that grew his own opium to manage his pain. He went to work every day, was never late, did his job, was good to his family. He managed his doses well. Was he addicted?

What do you mean exactly when you say "the actual substance is addictive"? Does it contain addictaniolol? What you are saying makes no sense. People are either prone to be addicted to a substance or they aren't. Blaming the substance doesn't help anyone and it means nothing.

If "the actual substance" were actually addictive, as you seem to believe, then every person without exception would be addicted to it after one try. Clearly that isn't the case, therefore there is nothing inherent in opium, nor any other drug, that makes itself addictive.

> No, opium is highly addictive

As you doubtless know, I didn't say it wasn't - I said it was less addictive that 'pharmaceutical grade' opioids.

I don't think there is any evidence for that. Dried opium is 10% morphine. If you take 10 mg of morphine or 100 mg of opium, it makes no difference, you're still getting the same amount of an addictive drug.

It does make a difference - opium is comprised of many alkaloids, in a similar way to how cannabis is made up of many cannabinoids. These alkaloids increase or decrease the effects of each other, as well as exerting their own influence.

Yes, but you're still getting 10 mg of morphine. Other alkaloids aren't going to change how addictive 10 mg of morphine is.

In fact, pure morphine has fewer side effects than opium. Opium has alkaloids that can cause severe nausea, etc.

> Opium has alkaloids that can cause severe nausea, etc.

Yes, it's well known that the alkaloid morphine causes nausea[1]. I can tolerate up to 30mg of immediate-release morphine (prescribed!), but beyond that I get bad nausea that is seriously off-putting. The nausea would certainly be a barrier to me getting addicted!

http://www.amepc.org/apm/article/view/1038/1264

It's not, though. At all. It literally contains morphine. It's harder to judge the dose. You will develop dependence every bit as quickly, and you can die from respiratory depression if the dose is too high.

I'm not saying it's not addictive, or that it's not dangerous - it is.

Morphine is however just one of the many alkaloids that make up opium - together they have a different effect than morphine alone.

I can't quickly find a reference beyond Wikipedia[1] that mentions opium being less addictive than, for example, morphine, but I read a lot of papers on drugs and have read this before. I'll try and find some and post back if I do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine

You said "much less addictive". People are responding to the words you write.

A bunch of years back, there was a minor internet epidemic of people ordering poppy pod arrangements off of eBay and brewing them in to tea. It proved every bit as addictive as abusing morphine. There are a lot of plants out there that have a safety-favourable agonist/antagonist mix, but I'm not sure opium is one of them.

Unlike purified morphine, raw opium can be selectively bred--or engineered--for qualities desired by humans. One such quality might be lower incidence of accidental overdose.

So perhaps the poppy also produces a substance that creates an aversion affect (probably due to extreme nausea) when it reaches a certain concentration in the body. If you approach an overdose, you might start puking your guts out, and wouldn't even be able to look at a 1928 O'Keeffe painting without clamping your jaw shut.

With purified morphine or heroin or methadone, you might just fall asleep and never wake up.

But the raw plant material might also contain something you don't know about that erodes the septum in your heart, and you die from chronic use instead of overdose. That's just one of the risks with whole-plant drugs.

Generally speaking, we have attempted to eliminate hidden side effects by using purified molecules, and attempted to overcome overdose by using prescriptions from trained experts. That isn't necessarily the best or only way to run civilization's pharmacy.

What would create that aversion effect? Thebaine? Anything's possible, I guess – but I haven't seen much evidence that there's any component of raw opium that can substantially slow or stop the respiratory depression and/or reinforcing effects.

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