Study: Oxytocin mediates social reward by harnessing endocannabinoids in mice | Hacker News Reader

Study: Oxytocin mediates social reward by harnessing endocannabinoids in mice

arstechnica.com

49 pointsAmorymeltzer45 comments

Marijuana definitely doesn't make socializing fun for all people...

I actually have never heard of it making socializing fun for anyone. My anecdata tells me that the opposite is true...

I have problems operating socially on it: specifically communication. My "more experienced" friends tell me that they initially had the same response until they had practice at socializing while high.

> until they had practice at socializing while high

I've often noticed that my weed-smoking friends build a tolerance to getting high with regular usage. However, it seems like the anti-anxiety effect is hard for them to give up. Both of those things could account for someone feeling better about socializing as they use weed regularly for longer periods.

cannabis has different strains, that contain different balances of active ingredients. It's thought that high THC strains are not going to be good for social activity, while high CBD content is probably going to be better.

Interesting! Some cursory research shows that CBD isn't psychoactive, and it actually counteracts some effects of THC.

It does probably decrease anxiety, though, which could make socializing easier and more enjoyable. I'd say that makes it a "social drug" in the same way that an SSRI can be a social drug for some people.

Sources:

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/medical-marijuana-epilepsy/

http://www.truthonpot.com/2014/09/24/5-differences-between-c...

http://www.canorml.org/cbd.html

Surely if it decreases anxiety then it is psychoactive?

(Or am I misunderstanding what "it" refers to in your second paragraph?)

the blog post they refer to says "psychoactive" which cites in turn a much more authoritative source that says "psychotropic"

It may not be psychoactive (not 100% sure what that means, to be honest), but it doesn't NOT affect your thinking. If you chug a bottle of CBD tincture you'll be out for the day—maybe not asleep, but certainly not very functional.

One of the significant highlights of legalization/regulation is the regular testing of cannabis products, which typically includes their cannabinoid profiles. This helps the end user find the product that works best for their use.

Hi, it makes it fun for me. But I have started to understand how much variation in effect different strains of the plant can have after experiencing it in a controlled manner in Colorado since legalization. Growing up you'd generally get whatever was around and so the effects were unpredictable, especially as street dealers were either ignorant of the provenance or would call whatever they had whatever they felt like calling it.

But having gone through the retail process a few times and having the guidance of "budtenders" who will ask you what effect you're looking for, they really can offer you different types that will leave you more social than others.

Or your various biases kick in and make you notice effects you paid an "expert" to tell you would be there.

It's probably a bit of both. Being blatantly dismissive is no better than assuming the effects are true just because someone told you so. However, crowd-sourced sites like leafly would lead me to believe there is some truth to the different effects.

Self-reporting basically ruins any ability to draw any conclusions at all. I'm not so much dismissing the effects are true as I am dismissing that anyone is capable of self-reporting them in a way that is useful.

Give me a well-designed experiment showing these effects, I'll believe it. Until then, it's an old wive's tale told mainly by young potheads.

If you've really been around the block then you'd know. Or maybe you're just someone that's always gotten the same brick-schwag or are one of those undiscerning types.

I think this is pretty well established, both scientifically and experientially.

We're talking about different ratios of psychoactive agents, so it's only natural to assume that if the action is different, the result will be different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_sativa#Difference_bet...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_indica#Difference_bet...

Both pages appeal to "well-known" effects, and the one linked study used as a citation for these effects says:

>There are numerous anecdotal reports claiming that marijuana with relatively higher ratios of THC:CBD is less likely to induce anxiety in the user than marijuana with low THC:CBD ratios; but, taken together, the results published thus far are inconclusive. [0]

Which is not exactly confidence inspiring as being "pretty well established" scientifically.

Granted, I'm not digging through the literature here, just following your links, but so far, the case has not been made.

[0] http://www.nap.edu/read/6376/chapter/4#36

What kind of study do you want?

They are different compounds. Mix up a blend of 25% cayenne to 75% cinnamon, then 75% cayenne to 25% cinnamon. Do you think that conscious experiences that results from these blends interacting with your tongue are going to be qualitatively different?

Do you want somebody to demonstrate from neural imaging or something, that users of different strains are in fact experiencing different effects on their conscious perception? For that you're probably going to need to make some significant progress in solving the hard problem of consciousness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

Meanwhile, those of us with an understanding of cause and effect can rest assured that different actions do in fact produce different results.

I'm not speaking to a study of any particular effect(anxiety, etc.) just going back to your original comment about the 'budtender induced placebo' and explaining that they aren't 'blowing smoke,' there are actual differences in the constituent molecules of the products.

I have consumed a fair amount of cannabis in my time so I have a "wealth of data" to draw upon, both pre-legalization and post. When I have gone back to Colorado to visit my folks, I have made a point to sample multiple strains and they have both corresponded to the advertised effects as well as been markedly different, presumably due to the differing ratios of the 30 or so cannabinoids found in every variety of indica and sativa. I won't go into my "street credentials" but let's just say I don't need to put stock in the expertise of so-called experts. Nonetheless the budtenders I interacted with were cool folks who were knowledgeable and helpful during the retail process.

Frankly I'm insulted by your dismissive post. Would it be too rude to call you a fool, for assuming more complete knowledge over someone else's experience? I'm middle-aged by this point so I don't really have time for folks like you or the type of energy you're sending my way.

It makes me very social and garrulous. I rarely indulge alone anymore.

...probably because most people use too much. Light use, say 1/4 of a normal hit on a joint is ideal for social interaction. Also, vaporizing reduces the "OMG, paranoia!" effect and red eye that comes with inhaling burnt plant material. Sativa is also better for socializing because it's more energetic and less introspective. Most people just don't realize that a full joint or bowl of today's weed is way too much, even for 5 or 6 people.

The transition from it being fun to being torture was strange for me.

When I was a teenager I could sit around smoking at parties or with groups of friends playing computer games getting high, or even just walking the streets stoned and it was an intensely pleasurable experience.

At about the age of 21 that all changed over the course of a week and suddenly being high made me feel paranoid and anxious.

Being high in a social situation was horrible because I felt like all eyes were on me, judging every little move and sound that I made.

I had to stop smoking completely because it was making me feel awful and honestly, I was dependent on it by that point. I couldn't watch movies or play games and the like without being high first because I was always pining after that 'enhanced' experience that was better than the sober experience.

I don't smoke anymore (29 years old now) but I've tried taking a few tokes socially a few times over the years to see if I could enjoy it again. Not a chance unfortunately, I sink right into that paranoia and anxiety within minutes.

When using Marijuana for its socializing/empathy/emotional benefits, you don't want to consume enough to be "impaired high". Very little dosage is needed.

You don't want to remplace / use all your body's chemical at once. You want to increase its natural responses.

Source: Have several family members with medical marijuana cards.

What this translates to for the casual weed smoker: only take 1 or 2 drags of a joint. And only a joint (no pipes or bongs or whatever).

I would recommend a vaporizer or a bong with good percolators and ice if the vaporisers are too dry for you and trigger sinusitis.

Joints are not very good for dosage since putting them off is a waste and are bad for overall respiratory health.

Weight a small quantity consume it. It's important to weight it, otherwise you will not notice your body's tolerance increasing and won't be able to control it, which will increase the cost of your medication.

I cant help but feel the title of the article is misleading. It should read,"Socializing releases oxytocin and cannabinoids"

And would make sense since someone who is stoned, is (most of the time) not very social, since their brain is already flooded with feel good chemical, Why socialize at all?

Of course, someone who is able to socialize normally will function badly when stoned.

However, what this research opens the door to is using cannabis to allow people who function badly to function better.

The extra help you get from cannabinoids might push your body's natural barrier and allow you to function normally. If when you socialize you don't generate enough oxytocin to get positive renforcement, that extra boost might be what you need to allow your brain to send you that signal. The same things might be true with empathy and emotions for people who suffer from Alexithymia or similar issues.

You can't simply get randomly blazed to get health benefits. Dosage is the key. They don't tell sick people "take as much opium as you want, dude". They dose opium based medication carefully. It's the same things with cannabis.

Came here for your comment. Cannabis, like most drugs, make socializing fun for people who already want to socialize.

I've never seen cannabis make socializing fun for a tired introvert who does not want to socialize. It in fact can make things worse.

That is highly variable on the strain of the plant smoked. Mainly two categories exist[0].

Sativa is a cerebal head high, kinda energetic, clear thinking creative high its like floating opposed to indica which is like sinking.

Indica is a body high, sorta narcotic feeling, you can actually feel the tingling in your body, your limbs, it's really heavy couch lock and such.

There are also hybrids which have both in 1 plant.

Go exploring at Leafly [1].

[0] https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/sativa-indica-and-h...

[1] https://www.leafly.com/explore

There also some interesting evidence that oxytocin helps with autism as well.

The effect of oxytocin nasal spray on social interaction deficits observed in young children with autism: a randomized clinical crossover trial. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26503762

Thanks for linking a recent study. We tried this with our daughter about 7 years ago, and will likely try it again. Readers should keep in mind that "helps with autism" is only referring to the potential to help with the social interaction aspect of some with autism (as opposed to the many other attributes those with severe autism may exhibit).

Read this and some other recent studies... do you have reliable distributor you used? What about dosing?

It was a long time ago. It was definitely a nasal spray administered maybe twice a day, but couldn't remember the distributor. I expect it came through a compounding pharmacy.

>> Marijuana enhances social interactions (or so I've heard).

I guess so ... At least if your definition of "socially interactive" is getting hungry then horny then hungry again (throw in the odd uncontrolled giggling).

I wish the media, would stop using the term marijuana when referring to cannabis.

What is the difference between the two terms? I would venture that most people don't know. I know that I don't know.

"Marijuana" is an etymologically dubious term popularized by Harry J. Anslinger and other prohibitionists circa the 1930s as an exotic name so as to exploit racial tension in order to sway public opinion towards the criminalization of cannabis.

What he said - a quick Google search will bring up several articles on the subject. Granted, the term has been somewhat "normalized" for some time - many still feel as though it negatively effects public perception (see the "death tax" and other terminology used in politics).

Offtopic: this is a strange and somewhat destructive pattern I noticed on HN. In an attempt to keep submission titles == article titles I often see the title changed. However, the original title for this post used very different language, which is the reason I think it got upvoted in the first place. Basically, we see a lot of "Man finds kitten; you won't believe what happens next" get upvoted to the front page, then changed to the more proper and sometimes poorer title of "Human-feline genetic link as anthropological proof of cognitive evolution in higher primates".

[Total idiot post here. As pointed out below, Oxytocin /= Oxycontin. Kept for lols.]

Opiods for social disorders? While an interesting effect, the inherent dangers of such a substance should moot any thought of practicality, like discovering that plutonium can be used to cure hangovers.

The drive to expand the market for opiod market in recent decades should give everyone pause. Addictive medicines once used to treat pain in hospitals (ie post-surgery) are now sold to old people for arthritis pain, for cronic conditions. I'm sure that lots of companies would jump on even the slightest evidence that opiods might also be used for mental disorders, disorders present in nearly every area of the population. With the current market flooded, with old people already swimming in painkillers, that is the only room for exponential growth. And it is exactly why we should not allow market forces to dictate treatments.

Oxytocin is not an opioid. You are thinking of Oxycontin.

Lol, My bad. Probably should have waited until after the morning caffeine injection.

Opium - really takes the edge off.

Oxytocin is NOT Oxycontin (oxycodone), by the way.

I loled. No need to down vote

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