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Comment by tshtf | Hacker News Reader

Days after the initial reports of rogue certificates being issued, Symantec wrote in their blog that they had already fired employees:

In addition, we discovered that a few outstanding employees, who had successfully undergone our stringent on-boarding and security trainings, failed to follow our policies. Despite their best intentions, this failure to follow policies has led to their termination after a thoughtful review process... At the end of day, we hang our hats on trust, and that trust is built by doing what we say we’re going to do.

http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/tough-day-leaders

It's starting to look now like this the fault of systemic flaws at Symantec, and not just a few employees who didn't follow procedure.

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Yes, that was a very old-school way of dealing with the problem. It’s mostly symbolic.

Most problems are systemic, which is a nice way of saying “ultimately management’s fault”.

Most things that most people do, most of the time, are reasonable in the circumstances. Management creates the circumstances. “Human error” is a non-explanation.

Here’s a book on the topic, often called systems thinking: http://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Understanding-Human-Error/...

Getting even more bookish: firing “bad apples” for “human error” is a form of substituting an easier question when presented with a harder one, as Kahneman describes in Thinking Fast and Slow.

>Most problems are systemic, which is a nice way of saying “ultimately management’s fault”.

Systemic problems are _everyone_'s problems. Both management and employees are a part of the same system. Firing bad apples for human behavior is equally as pointless as firing/resigning management (or pointing fingers).

Fair.

Managers are the ones responsible for setting the system. Systemic problems are their fault.

Not past a certain level where many people become part of the problem, otherwise replacing managers would be a effective way to fix organisations.

Replacing managers IS an effective way to fix organisations, if there is a systemic problem, if other parts are not problematic and if you find good replacements.

On the subject of managers and systems thinking: http://www.safetydifferently.com/if-it-werent-for-the-manage...

Book looks interesting - anyone else think it's worthwhile?

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