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Comment by the_af | Hacker News Reader

Oh, I'm not arguing that Bogost's article is flawless. I'm just saying that it's wrong to dismiss it simply because he is not interested in reviewing Prison Architect's gameplay. He has something interesting and valuable to say about prisons and how they are depicted in fiction, though in some aspects I agree his article goes too far. Yes, I don't think anyone else (but Bogost) pretends this game is a "worthwhile study" of American prisons; on the other hand, I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison.

I don't think Super Mario Bros' subject matter is comparable to Prison Architect's, and so I wouldn't expect the same kind of articles written about it.

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I think my biggest issue is how clear it was that he had something to say about the state of American prisons in the 21st century and the depiction of sensitive political topics in video games, then just lopped off all the rest of the context and picked a video game that happened to be about prisons.

If you play the game and have listened to what the developers have said, you'd see that these aspects were not a good fit and the developers specifically wanted to distance the player from these realities. The world outside you is a black box from which prisoners flow in and out. How that happens is completely out of your control and knowledge.

Bogost's article would not have been particularly interesting or revelatory without the context of a popular, recently released game. Context which he shimmed in to bring attention he wouldn't normally have gotten.

Well, "distancing" the player from the realities of prison life is an interesting decision worth commenting on. It's a valid game design choice, sure -- but it's something that definitely can be talked about in the context of "games as art/culture". I find it interesting, at least.

Also, I agree, I too get the vibe that Bogost wanted to talk primarily about the state of American prisons, but this didn't bother me because I wasn't expecting a game review with a final score and a "buy/do not buy" recommendation, and I found some of his points had merit.

> I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison.

It's a point in the sense of being the dogmas of a pundit who disguises his propaganda using the form of a game criticism.

> I don't think Super Mario Bros' subject matter is comparable to Prison Architect's, and so I wouldn't expect the same kind of articles written about it.

Personally I would be mildly surprised to NOT find a kotaku article that uses a mario game as a flimsy excuse to make some completely irrelevant point or sensational hook that the writer (or editor) wanted to make anyway.

> I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison.

According to you. The idea that a game about prison HAS to address race is the dogma. That's the preaching. That not only has nothing to do with making games that are fun and entertaining, but it also has nothing to do with a true artistic culture (rather than a circle-jerking pseudo-intellectual culture of criticism)

PS http://www.city-journal.org/2015/eon1022hm.html

> It's a point in the sense of being the dogmas of a pundit who disguises his propaganda using the form of a game criticism.

I'm confused. Are you saying you think that race isn't a crucial part of prison life? Or are you saying it is, but that it's dogmatic propaganda for someone to point out racism is absent in a computer game about prison?

> According to you. The idea that a game about prison HAS to address race is the dogma.

Well, I didn't write the article; I merely said I think the author has a point. No, no game HAS to do anything. But it's conspicuous when it does/doesn't do certain things. This can be discussed because it's an interesting aspect. That's all.

You can tell it's propaganda because of the rampant question-begging. The author isn't "simply pointing out racism is absent in the game." Here is a direct quote from the Kotaku article:

In the same interview he also admits that, in the U.K., incarceration is not a major issue with huge class and racial implications as it is in the U.S.. Thus, as Brits, they may see the world in a different way.

Note the presupposition: Incaceration in the US has class and race implications. That is the dogma. That is the "message." The next several paragraphs discusses the state of prisons in the US, linking to biased sources with sensational language like "out of control."

Now, you could claim that this tangent is needed to establish the relevance of the subject, but the manner it is presented strongly points to the fact that this is simply a propaganda payload. There's this:

The America justice system disproportionately and purposely targets minorities, which make up about 60% of the population behind the bars, according to the Center for American Progress.

Again this is propaganda. Question-begging. This isn't part of some kind of intellectually open enquiry about prisons, video games about prisons, or even prison simulations. This is one-sided preaching about a subject completely unrelated to videogames.

> Well, I didn't write the article; I merely said I think the author has a point

You did phrase a portion of comment in a way that took responsibility for the idea. Obviously incarceration in the US is racist, right? We're talking about how a videogame designer chose not to focus on this obvious truth about how incarceration is racist especially in the US.

PS to whoever is downvoting me: I have made my post less sarcastic. I will endeavor to be more respectful however it is worth anyone's time to study propaganda and how it works, so as not to be so easily fooled. It's important to be able to recognize it and not excuse it with "oh he's just pointing out <etc.>"

Keep in mind that calling an argument "propaganda" inherently attaches a negative value judgment to it. The only difference between "persuasion" and "propaganda" is the reader's attitude towards the message and (unfortunately) the speaker.

Your points are spot-on and they strangely remind me how most journalists make biased articles when they relate information in the medias, sadly.

(I didn't downvote you)

I'm not sure I agree. Not all question-begging is propaganda, nor is all propaganda question-begging. In fact, in this case it's not question begging at all. Question begging refers to the act of assuming the conclusion of what you're trying to prove, which is not the case here. The author is not trying to prove that "incarceration in the US has class and race implications"; this is a given, a premise of his argument. He is instead trying to say something about Prison Architect and how it depicts prison. It's also written as an opinion piece, not a peer-reviewed publication, and as such doesn't source many of its assertions. I've no problem with that, because I don't read this article seeking proof of anything.

By the way, I do believe incarceration has big race and class implications in almost the whole world, not just the US, so I have no problems with that part of the article.

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