The Two Asian Americas
newyorker.com
newyorker.com
When I look on Facebook pictures of my european friends, they tend to be in a big mix of colors. Sure, there's more Indians at an Indian wedding in London, but you will see the little gang of white/east asian/black kids there too. Go to a majority (ie white) wedding and you will see they have a bunch of Indian/Chinese/Black etc friends.
When I look on the Facebook pictures of American friends, they are quite clearly color segregated. I really find it odd that out of maybe 300 guests at a wedding in SF, only a couple are not from the same minority.
America is also the country where I've found the strongest racial stereotypes. In Europe it's not really the stuff of comedians anymore, but when I went to a comedy night in NYC, the guy looked at me and said "Why aren't you doing homework?". Funny, sure, but it says something about what the audience already believes about various people.
In addition, I'm often super surprised at these comments. The US is many orders of magnitude less accepting of racism than Europe. Europeans on the whole speak freely of their negative opinions of Muslims and gypsies. In the US, any comment mentioning race carries immediately with it a negative connotation. This is exactly why it is the breadstuff of comedians. There is no humor in something that is simply accepted as "truth" as much of European racism is.
I hate speaking anecdotally, but just as a credit to my experience with racism in Europe as an Asian-American, my time there was filled with experiences ranging from ignorance to aggressive defensiveness. Most of this can be explained away as just inexperience due to Europe's immense racial homogeneity. Often they would treat me as a fob which was an acceptable assumption. But this just goes to show how behind Europe is in the racial conversation (they don't even have racial experiences!)
Interesting. Do you personally think that if a white person were to express similar sentiments, he would be guilty of racism?
> I often can't relate with asian people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (why is there chinese school on saturday? what is discipline by disappointment? no privacy?) and although I have many close asian friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups.
I'm not sure why I would think that is racist.
Well educated white people tend to be more sensitive to things seeming racist, because they really don't want to seem racist. Hence the idea of political correctness (PC). I get the impression that Asians in Asia don't care as much about being PC as white people in America.
But that difference - like the differences you mention - isn't racial, it's cultural. The culture just happens to correlate with the race.
> why is there chinese school on saturday?
There are plenty of white minorities that would identify with this. E.g. Jews have Hebrew school, Greeks have Greek school. Have you seen the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
That was exactly my point. But because they correlate with race, they get imposed upon you and associated with you even beyond what culture brings.
> There are plenty of white minorities that would identify with this.
Part of this must take into account how Jews and Greeks were not considered 'white' for centuries. Furthermore, it also speaks to how I don't even know exactly why the average white person implicitly doesn't understand me.
Such sentiments try to extrapolate information on a group of people based off of a non-random sampling. There's bias introduced by the geography of one's life, if nothing else.
However, if you go to the small cities, then racism is very prevalent. My wife is asian and when we're in small cities in France (Nantes, Rennes, Rouen, Toulouse, ...) it often happens that people speak to me but behave as if she were transparent. They just completely ignore her as if she weren't there.
It also shows in term of votes with smaller cities tending to vote for parties like the French FN.
it is easier to integrate urban, small countries with manageable percentage of immigrants. e.g., Sweden (population 10mm) versus america (pop 300mm). when you have a large land mass, enormous population and very high rates of immigration and naturalization (let's not forget that France and Germany do not allow as much naturalization as USA), the task of integration is that much harder and more complex.
At least, let them get their racial terms or classifications right before they could start muddying the water hype up racial tensions between communities.
as you can see, classification is a tricky problem. america's classification is constantly evolving. every 10 years america takes a census and every time there is a change in the boxes for race categories. this is an attempt to keep pace with changing views. it's not a perfect system but it's not bad. it certainly beats france's system (which literally ignores all racial categories according to principle--leading to all manner of unintended negative consequences including inequality towards recent immigrants or citizens of color).
The BBC has plenty of comedy where racial stereotypes are commonplace. Even the great lefty Stephen Fry has them on his QI show, as he makes jokes about 'dagos' and Alan does his shitty Mexican "speedy gonzales" joke accents. Occasionally you'll see a Welsh celebrity arc up over the incessant sheep-shagging jokes as well. I can't speak for European standup per se (or continental fare), but I can speak to the BBC tv episodes that get shipped over here.
One thing that stood out for me was that I remember seeing John Oliver call out Dara O'Briain on Mock the Week for making racist French jokes (on the smelly/don't wash stereotype) and now Oliver has his own show in the US, he's constantly using racist stereotypes in his skits. Racial stereotypes seem to be pretty hard to get out of comedy, even amongst the more highbrow comedians...
Then you come to the US and it's all about race race race and more race. Even in what is supposed to be their most progressive city - SF - it's just about race race race. Even street comedians/entertainers will play the race card every two minutes.
Honestly, it's boring. I understand that US likes to codify class issues as race issues, but ... stop. Call them class issues, and address them. Turning class warfare into race warfare doesn't help anyone. You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it.
Focus on that part.
Maybe because in a homogeneous society, there's no reason to talk about race.
> Then you come to the US and it's all about race race race and more race.
Maybe because unlike the parts in Europe that you mentioned (which were completely white), there are different races here.
> You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it. Focus on that part.
People here are NOT discussing race because they want to change their races. They are discussing race because just like sexism, homophobia, etc, racism against anyone (even if they're doing well professionally) is something to highlight, acknowledge and work towards getting rid of.
I'll certainly want to be in a country that actively talks about race than a country that doesn't. If you think not talking about race means there's no or less racism in Europe, then just look at soccer / football.
This is a very European attitude, to the point where four European countries have gone so far as to remove the word "race" from their lawbooks[0]. The problem is that removing actual racism isn't as easy as simply erasing the word, and by removing the word, we remove the ability to take effective action to combat racism.
This isn't turning 'class warfare into race warfare'. Masking racism in this way makes it impossible to address, and thereby perpetuates racism.
[0] e.g. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/francoi...
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A racial epithet was thrown at me and my family in parting by a homeless person last year while crossing the intersection in my neighborhood, which we shrugged off. This quote prompted the memory again, and I think that Asians in Western countries may remain silent also because causing a scene is, in general, considered "unseemly" when little is perceived to be gained. I originally felt this to be a rather rational response for anybody else (regardless of their race), but when placed against the backdrop of the Immigration and Nationality Act of '65 mentioned in the article, I'm considering a different response the next time, although I sincerely hopefully there won't be a next time.
Makes one almost laugh good-naturedly at serious and systematic Canadian Québécois policies devoted to keeping the French language alive in Canada. I much rather prefer intense debates around language over race.
EDIT: I grew up in the Middle East, where racism is overt. In Saudi Arabia (for example), your salary for the exact same job is to a large extent determined by your passport nationality. I grew up expecting it there; but it always give me pause when encountering racism in a Western country.
ps: As a child of bill 101, I do not really understand what you meant by that comment about French in Quebec.
A big part of it is being consistently dismissed or more often punished for speaking up.
Because of the myth that racism "doesn't happen" in the West, or that racism "doesn't happen" against Asian-Americans, if you try to speak up about it, one of two things will happen:
1. You'll be told that you should just rise above it[0], that you're imagining it, or (my personal favorite) that it's "not really racism" because $REASON.
2. You'll face outright retaliation for bringing it to light, and thereby forcing people to face an uncomfortable truth
After a while, the fear of these reactions gets internalized, and people decide that it's safer just to remain silent.
EDIT Ironically, as I'm writing this comment, this pattern is already playing out in the sibling comments, with more than one person telling OP that he should just ignore it (or in other words, "be better than that"). Which misses the whole point of the story.
[0] and this is how the role of the "model minority" is actually used as a weapon
Of course not every asian guy is a 1%-er working at Google. But lots of old white guys (always an acceptable target for comedy) also struggle to make ends-meet. Regardless, that's where the media has chosen to draw the line. I'm not defending the practice, but I'm pretty sure that's what explains your observations.
Traditionally, the only lead roles afforded to Asian males are either 1) nerds or 2) mystical martial artist
Also the weird history of Asian actors playing Native Americans in Westerns...
But Ken Jeong? The guy whose biggest movie role to date is "Mr. Chow" in The Hangover, where he pranced about in tighty whities with an exaggerated Chinese accent and making slow jerkoff motions?
The same Ken Jeong who infamously did this shoot with GQ? http://www.gq.com/gallery/ken-jeong-kate-upton-mens-slim-cor...
Video if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hLYXqqgfAY
It's hard to perceive much of his work as anything but modern variations of Long Duk Dong, ultimately I consider his work to have added to Asian stereotypes.
The guy is free to take the role he wants, but IMO as far as "actors dismantling Asian stereotypes with their work" his career so far has been as far from it as it gets.
I recall some time ago I was walking down the street when a panhandler approached me and asked me for money and as usual I ignored him and when he noticed that I paid no attention to his request, he told me he hopes to see me burned alive to which I replied with a fake smile and just went on thinking how he could thought that insulting me would win me over and make me change my mind and pay him, and that's it. 15 seconds later, I had better things to preoccupy my mind with end of story.
Thing is, I know plenty of foreigners who have a similar experience to your own, so I know you're not wrong. I don't know what I do differently, but Japanese cops do not bother me at all.
wrt moving back, I will be leaving next year due to the job market here, so there's a data point for you. It's not impossible to find work, but if you're in tech and coming from the US be prepared for a bit of a shock.
iraq, afghanistan, syria are obvious, no? being white makes you a target for assassination, kidnapping.
china and japan have slurs against whites, see them as brutes.
being white and walking into areas in much of latin america is a bad idea. again, kidnapping and other crimes. same is true for pockets in the USA, from SF tenderloin to the bronx.
if you're an affluent white person bigger and bigger areas of the world are being shut off from you.
> As a male WASP, why would you bother with what a homeless person thinks of you? I too ignore the angry vitrolic ones. They hate me too, though they may lack epithets for me. It's a pointless unwinnable argument, and you'll never look like the good guy, yelling at a homeless person
The answer is in the original comment
>> If Asians sometimes remain silent in the face of racism, and if some seem to work unusually hard in the face of this difficult history, it is not because they want to be part of a “model minority” but because they have often had no other choice.
Asian-Americans are told by others all their life that it's uncouth to speak out about injustices that happen to them. Ironically, the first comment on an article that discusses this point mentions one of these injustices, and the first reply is a comment that suggests that they should remain silent about it instead.
It's one thing to remain silent as a conscious decision not to want to look like the "bad guy", but it's an entirely different thing to remain silent as a conscious (or unconscious) reaction to the societal role that you've been conditioned to.
I understand Asian Americans face systemic racism; it's just that the particular example at hand seems like something else.
My original parent is welcome to say things back if they like. But it just seems pointless, no matter what nationality you are.
Anyway, I know I'm on the "wrong" side of this discussion for HN, but that doesn't make me less confused.
Minorities tend to be more sensitive because their armor has already been pierced multiple times. That's why "the confidence of a man" or "the confidence of a white man" is a saying.
I know the crap I go through it's not even a fraction of hers but this is a good example.
https://thsppl.com/why-i-m-absolutely-an-angry-black-woman-2...
It explains why some of my friends are super sensitive.
It doesn't even take something particularly racist to really bring things to a distilled clarity - it's not that they hate you or hate your race, but the realization that no matter what you do, what beer you drink, what work you do, what organizations you work with, where you live, or anything else, they will never see you as an authentic American.
(or in my case, Canadian, bah details)
That's the part that stings the most, not the vicious racists spewing hate at me, but the knowledge that everyday, reasonable people will never fully accept me as an authentic Canadian, and they see no problem with it.
The sad part is most of them are nice people. They just lack life experience. It's almost comical. One guy got offended when heard that a black director made a movie called "Dear White People". :/
Take one example.
If you denounce your own color, you are quickly accepted and praised for being funny and unbiased; if you speak up about the injustices, you get labeled as too sensitive, confrontational and quickly cast off.
It's funny to see so many Asian Americans hating their own kin, they just unconsciously internalized those behaviours because doing so gives them social credit.
> Who taught you to hate the texture of your hair? Who taught you to hate the color of your skin? To such extent you bleach, to get like the white man. Who taught you to hate the shape of your nose and the shape of your lips? Who taught you to hate yourself from the top of your head to the soles of your feet? Who taught you to hate your own kind? Who taught you to hate the race that you belong to so much so that you don't want to be around each other? No... Before you come asking Mr. Muhammad does he teach hate, you should ask yourself who taught you to hate being what God made you.
> You go into China and find a Chinese man that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a picture, he’ll paint Jesus looking like a Chinese man. You go up to Alaska and find an Eskimo that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a picture of Jesus, he’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like an Eskimo. You come back here to America and find a white man that believes in Jesus he’ll paint Jesus looking like a white man. Go inside a Negro church who believes in Jesus and ask them to paint a picture of Jesus, they’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like the white man. That’s what you call integration.
During high school living in the East Bay, an african american friend (who came from money) was regularly followed and occasionally pulled over because he was in a nice car and driving through nice neighborhoods (where he lived).
Working in a semiconductor startup many moons ago, a lot of the Chinese hardware engineers kept to themselves and didn't interact outside their group.
Living in Santa Cruz, the "minority" population is primarily Hispanic. I can't speak to the schools, but many many keep to their groups and don't make an effort to integrate into the community as a whole.
Maybe it is dual sided racism, but ethnic groups that live in large numbers and don't become part of the overall community and instead build their own island for me is just as problematic as a society that isn't open to others joining and becoming part of the whole. This is not to say that culture and history should not be preserved, practiced, etc. but moving somewhere and excluding yourself from the community as a whole is also problematic.
Can be hard when the minority group prefers to speak in a different language. It's give-and-take. Often minority groups are just fine balkanizing instead of making the effort to integrate. And the minorities are often walking a tightrope between their parents and the majority culture which makes it hard to bridge this gap. So they find it easier just finding people in the same situation. That's why integration often takes generations, and typically takes longer the larger the minority.
LOL, that's a good one. I always thought California was the engine behind this systematic racism since it's no longer politically correct to have racial bias in Federal Law to restricts citizens' behavior. The media is the only way to influence their mind.
I live in the San Gabriel valley, and while it's not perfect, "melting pot" is an apt description, certainly compared to places I've lived in other states.
Hollywood greedy practices
> Have you ever lived in California?
Honestly, no
For a significant fraction of Americans "Indian" evokes visions of cowboy antagonists or casinos, rather than the Taj Mahal. That's not politically correct, but that is what it is...
My internal heckles followed the pattern of "I'm XYZ, so I can't [fit in with this social group, be attractive to her, etc]" where XYZ included:
- too short
- Asian
- not interested in sports
- a gamer
- too poor/cheap
One day I realized I can't change how I feel at the moment, but I can choose what to do in reaction. If I buy into the feeling's line of reasoning, I'm keeping my situation the same. If I'm honest with myself, I'm usually not thinking such things because I'm happy with the status quo.
Complaints about the status quo are useful if they lead to action, but until then they're an energy sink.
There are racism everywhere, you learn real quick to either work with what you got or cry about it. Maybe white have it better.
It doesn't matter, you work with what you got and ignore all the hater. America can always be better but it does give you the ability to move up in class wise and a great country.
Oh but you know what? I knew an Asian girl attending my university. She was born in the 1990s, and her family photo is like a college text book. Bunch of mixed races, white, black, asian, and hispanic. Turns out her uncles and aunts marry outside of their race.
It's all good.
What I find remarkable is the law and policies which are racist in nature. Asian Americans are never considered a minority in the popular discourse where as Blacks and Hispanics are considered as minority.
But given all that, I do think it is in America's interest to control who comes to USA and who does not and there is nothing wrong in passing laws that might prohibit any kind of migration to the country. What matters however is that when a personal lawfully gets naturalized he/she must be treated as just any other American.
as an asian guy, let me just say that quite frankly, the solution to this is to 1. be attractive, and 2. don't be unattractive. lift weights, dress well, have cool hobbies, make money.
girls say a lot of things due to social pressure but when the chips are on the table you can't negotiate attraction. it's subconscious.
And what constitutes a cool hobby? If attraction is subconscious (or love at first sight?), what does it matter if I play semi-pro badminton vs semi-pro lacrosse?
There is much more at work than 'being attractive' when that standard of beauty's defined by forces way outside your control.
I don't buy the whole (no pun intended) "get a hobby, start improving yourself" mantra either, because I know that the sexual marketplace is just as rational as any other.
Nothing makes you more attractive to a woman than the double which represents your bank account balance. There are of course external signifiers which communicate this information.[0]
Or, to use the vernacular:
"I ain't saying she a gold digger, but she ain't messing with no broke niggas"[1]
Not really on topic but it is a teachable moment; You should always use fixed point math to deal with currency. Floating point math is not consistently accurate and should never be used.
Women tend to find high social status attractive, which is correlated with wealth and income but not the same thing. The broke musician who packs the club with hundreds of fans is going to do way better than the introverted software engineer with half a million in the bank.
I don't buy the whole (no pun intended) "get a hobby, start improving yourself" mantra either
Hobbies can help if it's something that the general public will respect you for. Woodworking good, Magic bad.
Based on knowing a few people in each category, i would say that that the average white american with a $100,000 net worth is going to have far more success with women than an asian american with a $10,000,000 net worth, assuming similar levels of fitness and social skills.
Once you go above a certain level, there just aren't that many avenues to 'show off' your wealth without looking gaudy. (At least not until you get to private jet/yacht territory) You might have a nice house, but how will the average women know that? You might have a closet full of tailored suits, but are you wearing that every day? You might drive a Tesla, but so do a lot of people in the valley. If you have an apple watch edition, you just look like a douchebag.
At best, women will look at the typical wealthy asian american as the 'stable' guy to settle down with, and not the guy to have a one night stand with, or explore their sexuality with.
My advice is for the asian american to focus on going to the gym, rather focusing on their bank account. And if they have already made money, use some of it on personal training and hiring of a nutritionist.
you should ruminate on that.
It sounds like an interesting study to see how the local tabloids pick their "sexiest" choices. Does Lativia's "People" equivalent proportionally reflect their population demographics over time? What about China? Nigeria? Brazil?
Who do you think most girls are going to go for, assuming they do not know that they grew up in the same environment?
Exactly...
Then I realized, by analogy, that I was perpetuating my own situation. The biggest turnoff for me wanting to recommend a friend for employment was hearing him complain about how unfair the job market is, how worthless his university education was, and so on. In the decade since I've graduated from college, I've witnessed friends jump around across companies and careers and I've witnessed other friends stay put and complain. Complaining can be useful if it leads to action, but it's also a strange and unfortunate local minimum for many people.
To build off of beachstartup's point, it's worth considering your objective when you complain about something like social inequality. Is your complaint motivated by a desire to be happier and more fulfilled, or by a desire to see a fairer world? I can shamelessly say that I just want to be happier, so I'm going to try to play the game instead of trying to change it. For now.
to further elaborate - "most" asian guys do much better in the work force than they do in the dating game - why? simple, they've spent their entire lives training to work, and NONE of their lives training how to be successful with women.
explaining this shit to people makes me feel like i'm describing breathing air to a fish. it's all very simple, yet people just get stuck in such a mental hall of mirrors.
it's like the sexual equivalent of being caught in poverty. it truly is a mindset, yet those stuck in it are absolutely convinced otherwise.
However I feel this is also a short-term and selfish way to go. There has to be a way to make the world a more equal place, even if you and I don't live to see it.
Like the physicist who was innocent but had his family dragged through an espionage trial because the officials didn't even bother to consult experts in the field.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee
Though to be fair, there is also precedence of actual cases of espionage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_t...
This is literally the definition of racial profiling.