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Comment by sccxy | Hacker News Reader

I'm living in one of poor EU countries.

I earn less money than they pay for refugees.

Our pensioners get less money than these 'refugees' with Armani clothing...

Don't be a dick indeed, work more, so you can earn more and pay more taxes for the immigrants (if they were refugees they would stay whereever help was offered instead of storming to Germany), because those loans won't pay by itself and USA, IMF and the banks surely won't write that off.

Right now my country is stormed by them and can barely keep up. Schengen is a joke, same as the EU.

This will probably be down voted since Hacker News turned into a "safe space" (which is ironic considering all the whiplash about free speech on the internet around here), so let me just quote a character called Reality on the popular show "South Park": "You're sad that people are mean ? Well I'm sorry, the world isn't one big liberal arts college campus."

Just remember to keep paying your taxes, which will increase, and dont complain if your standard of living goes down, your hospitals and schools are overcrowded, or your children cannot afford a tiny apartment.

So they would stay in Hungary instead which already has more refugees per capita than Germany and is totally overwhelmed? Or in Greece which is in the middle of a crisis itself? How about Lebanon and Turkey where there are more than 10 times as much refugees, where refugees have no perspective of being able to work and where basic needs of life are not guaranteed.

Free speech is about the right to express oneself, it has nothing to with people not being allowed to disagree with you.

No, they should stay in fucking Syria.

If they're so keen on western values such as democracy and freedom of religion, they should take up arms and fight for them, just like our ancestors did.

And if they're not keen on western values such as democracy and freedom of religion, they should stay the fuck out of the west.

The right to live in a peaceful, prosperous country is not automatic. For those of us in the west, our ancestors earned that right for us. For those in the Middle East -- well, they need to work hard now to earn that right for their descendants.

Is it fair that some are born in Europe and some are born in Syria? No. Is it fair that some are born human and some are born fish? No.

Most of our ancestors did nothing to "earn that right" for us. The vast majority tried to go about their lives as before.

And a substantial number of "our" ancestors were part of messing up Syria and Iraq in the first place, going back to colonial times.

This has to be the most simplistic, nationalistic, view of history I've ever read. Ignoring that throughout history it is extremely common for groups to leave their countries and settle elsewhere when it becomes oppressive, for example America...

It's also extremely common for countries to be conquered by foreign invaders.

Refugees and immigrants are "invaders" now.

— What refugees wear does not matter. Even if they all wore genuine Armani clothing, what are they supposed to do? Sell all their clothes and buy cheaper brands before they flee? Your idea that a person who doesn’t look destitute or poor enough should not be regarded as a refugee shows how little you understand what a refugee is. The people fleeing to Europe are from all kinds of backgrounds, including workers, the middle class and highly skilled professionals. When a war breaks out and a city is destroyed, the middle class doesn’t stay behind. They sell their houses, cars and anything else they can and spend upwards of $10K to make it to somewhere safe.

— I’m sure refugees in your country get less money than pensioners, just as they do in Germany. Are you saying that Germany should give refugees less money than any pensioner in the EU gets?

Don't forget that living expenses are higher (in "richer" EU countries), too.

You earn less than 200€?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

This is what happened last time refugees were turned away en masse with no option but to return to their home country: they were exterminated. The EU was formed with a "never again" attitude to this kind of catastrophe. There are already over 4 million refugees plus an estimated 6 million displaced within Syria. People have finally noticed that they're already dying trying to escape, often in the Mediterranean. The options are to take them in or send them to their deaths.

This is probably going to happen again when Yemen goes up; it doesn't help that the country is running out of groundwater while a Saudi/Iranian proxy war is being fought in it.

Poor jews. I guess they have learned from history and help others now.

How many refugee camps for Syrian people are in Israel?

They learned from history alright, just not in the way you think. Israel is one of the best defended states with some of the best social welfare for its citizens. They work six days a week to make it happen, and their public-private partnerships are top notch and generate a massive amount of real innovation (as in - life saving medical technology instead of boredom apps). If every state in the world was as self-sufficient and productive, humanity would be colonizing space by now.

They sure are good in colonizing the land of Palestine with moral and monetary support of a western country that sadly forgot how to use their resources for space exploration and are colonizing third world countries since the WWII with government coups.

I am not denying that, but you're beating up the wrong bush.

Colonization and exploitation are more than buzzwords, but in the real world they work the other way around. Look at the yearly trade balance between say Chile and South Korea. Chile is basically an enormous copper ore mine, it accounts for 50% of their exports. South Korea exports back finished goods. So who is really exploiting who, and what country is more important to the world? I'd say the imagination of South Koreans and the ability to make high quality products trump the Chileans. That doesn't mean the Chilean people are in any way lesser than the Koreans, but that they need to invest in what produces real value in 21st century - brains.

There is really not much to be gained for Israel by colonizing areas of Palestine, except better security (which is an economic bonus in itself). What I do wonder though - if Israel is magically relocated to an island nation, say in the middle of a trade route like Singapore, what would they be really capable of, unhindered by defensive considerations.

Ah yes, the white guilt.

There's a reason why Germany is targeted as the end destination - there's less chance it will deny them because of collective guilt.

The UK said it will not accept any then mere thousands, yet no one blinks an eye. Why ? Why didn't the USA (who started this shit in the first place) offered any help ? Why don't the immigrants demand that from them ?

The blind left extremism in modern western world isn't much different from the right one and there are a lot of political players who will exploit that.

I think the main issue is fear of radical islamists hiding amongst the refugees going to Europe. Haven't heard of any jews blowing stuff up and beheading germans, can't say the same for syrians and middle east in general. The somewhat lesser issue, as evident by this thread is economic competition.

I can understand the sentiment

However, for those who want to work in Berlin (or somewhere else) can apply for a German Blue Card (usually you apply for jobs hen the company gets you one), shouldn't be too hard

I'm from a European, but not an EU member country, and I got offered a senior software developer job in Germany. I applied for a 12 month work visa, even signed a statement that I will return when it expires, and it got denied.

So yes in theory it's "easy", but in practice it isn't always like that. (To be fair you're talking about Blue Card which I didn't apply for because I've heard it's bit harder to get since it's usually issued for period longer than 12 months)

It's easy as in "much easier than an H1B" but sometimes there are issues getting one, yes (might be the company's fault as well).

Come on, don't be a dick. You're exactly like a child that cries because the others get "more" and it's so unfair. Boohoo.

It's hardly "being a dick" to expect his government to provide better for its own citizens than it does for foreigners.

But it's not his government, it's the German government. How Germany chooses to spend its money is a matter for the German people, and not anyone else.

That may have been the case before the EU and the euro but now it appears that he should have a voice in the greater European continent. Also is it not essential that they all raise each others livelihood before giving massive amounts of cash towards non citizens? I think Japan has it right in this case regardless of what the guardian and other liberal media want to cram down everyone's throat.

I was referring to the EU, which is supposed to serve the interests of its member states -- a radical idea, it seems.

The member states have different interests.

He's comparing apples to orange tic tacs. Germany provides 140€ per month in cash to asylum seekers plus accommodation (usually a shared dorm room). He's in "a poorer European country" and apparently earns less. He's ignoring costs of living. 140€ is a pittance in Germany. It is much less than pensioners or unemployed get. I spend 3x as much on food.

I hold governments to higher standards than parents.

All this statement means is that your pensioners should be getting more money, not that refugees should be getting less. Likewise, you should be making more money than you do, if your income is lower than refugee support money. I see this argument repeated ad nauseam and it's really upsetting, because it's basically saying that other people should have it worse for the sake of having it worse.

The government should start planting more money trees so they can pay for it all.

You do realize where money comes from right? That the refugees get any thing when actual tax, social security, disability was paid into by citizens for citizens and even if it was as available as you think it should be, the citizens are having their money funneled and real estate taken from them in ways that are unsettling and downright disgraceful.

The cost of the refugee crisis for Germany will be about 8 billion in 2015. That's more than postage but still less than 100€ per citizen. On the grand economic scale, it barely registers. Compared to the plight of these people (which some may argue the west is somewhat responsible for), it is hardly enough to get jealous.

And how much will the cost be by 2045?

The entire fucking country and its culture, presumably.

Yeah, I pay for it in my taxes and I am very happy the money goes to these causes. And your statement about real estate being taken from anyone is just outright false.

Your statement is extremely smug.

I looked at your other comments. You live in north England and earn £20k per year.

If you have children, you will find that this does not go very far. If that is your sole income then your standard of living will not be far above one of the recent economic migrants.

If your children is not as academically gifted as you, they will likely live a life of chronic underemployment and a far lower standard of living than you.

It is the simple rule of supply and demand. Bringing in large amounts of economic migrants will depress wages and drive up living costs.

One or two generations ago, one wage would have been enough to afford buying a house in a decent suburb.

For our generation, you need two incomes for a similar setup.

For your childrens generation it will be three incomes as you will need to significantly contribute.

Every day in Nigeria close to 20000 people are born and this is accelerating. Even if 1% chose to come over, it is demographic suicide.

It is our grandchildren that will suffer the most. We are giving away all that we have worked for.

If you looked a bit further into my comments history, you would have found that I am myself an immigrant. I come from one of the poorer countries of the EU and what I make in UK is literally 4-5x as much as I would in my own country. For me,to be against immigrants, would be to be a hypocrite. There's over 2 millions of people from my country over here in UK and you would be very hard pressed to say that it changed anything in terms of living costs or that it depressed wages.

>>One or two generations ago, one wage would have been enough to afford buying a house in a decent suburb.

That has literally nothing to do with immigration, but it seems to me that you are trying to associate all modern problems into one common cause.

>>Every day in Nigeria close to 20000 people are born and this is accelerating. Even if 1% chose to come over, it is demographic suicide.

You are making an assumption that they will continue procreating at the same rate - which is just purely wrong.

Good points, but not quite. The standards of living have fallen not because of nigerians coming over and stealing jerbs, but because the redistribution shifted from people doing the work to people owning the capital required to keep the operation going. Of course, it is much easier to blame a bunch of poor people who don't know their rights or might not even have them.

If you really want your kids to live better - work for it now, and work for yourself. Judging by your comment though this doesn't seem to be the plan. Just being blunt here.

The real estate for the refugee homes, the favoritism towards them for getting capital cheaper despite having no credit. Facilities will be set up and local citizens will be squished out. Happens now in UK, France, Germany in urban and suburbs and villages. If you read things not mainstream press you get stories not contrived from people living it.

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