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Comment by nilkn | Hacker News Reader

As someone who really has social anxiety, this is not it. I have absolutely no issues understanding non-verbal communication. I'm simply scared of certain social situations, for no rational reason. There are relatively mundane group scenarios that will leave my heart pounding and my hands almost shaking, though I do my best to hide it, and over the years I have become pretty adept at just dealing with it.

With that said, I do not mean to diminish the difficulties the author here has experienced. I just think that anxiety is not the most descriptive label for them.

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We're talking irrational fears?

For the longest time I had a fear of unfamiliar shower heads well into adulthood. http://i.imgur.com/qcVVJwCl.jpg

Like if I'm in a hotel room and need to take shower, I have to take a deep breath and stare at it, telling myself "it can't hurt me" over and over again. The same kind of nervous I get in a plane that's about to take off. I still get a bit nervous to this day at 38 years of age. I suspect something happened to me at a young age but nobody seems to know what it could be. I've noticed that my 5yr old daughter is also scared of them when they make those whoosh-sounds just before water comes out. Maybe I was traumatized from that too.... I dunno...

I'm always curious about stuff like this so I don't mean to be rude, but in all seriousness, how do you think a shower head will hurt you? I understand it isn't rational so maybe the answer is "I dunno" but figured I would ask.

I suspect it is a sensory-processing thing. I'm reading waaaayyyy too much into this, but people on the Asperger's syndrome spectrum--even slightly--and more likely to be in the HN commenter crowd--have peculiar sensory issues. Often you see it with things like aversion (or preference) for certain food textures, so it doesn't seem out of left field to hear that anticipatory auditory and sensory stimulus (like the death rattle of a showerhead, or the subsequent burst of lukewarm water) would be a trigger. And that it would be passed down genetically or by behavioral role models...

part of the struggles we're having with my autistic son center around toilet training -- I think in large part because the bathroom is full of things that make running-water type noises, and those freak him out.

The closest thing I can think of is maybe a bunch of vines will come out and grab me or something.

don't worry, you are too big to fit through the holes, so worst case they will just immobilize you until you yell enough that someone comes and kills the vine monster. they might see you naked but you won't die. :D

My experience is this, As got in to mechanical work (lathe, milling etc) and computer. Before about 16 i thought everyone will do right thing only and not really cheat absolutley but the real work hit me and i found people will do mediocre job for no reason or simply lazy so when ever i see structure or car i double check break or think it may fall...

> I've noticed that my 5yr old daughter is also scared of them when they make those whoosh-sounds just before water comes out. Maybe I was traumatized from that too.... I dunno...

If I may: it's more likely you passed along the stress you experience in these situations to her. She learned to that the shower head should be approached with caution because you tense yourself around it.

Moreover, irrational fears are not necessarily linked to the stress inducing agent. It might have been associated later (to prevent your psyche to directly relive the trauma). That psy territory though so I stop there before saying anything stupider ;).

it's possible :p

There was a truly distressing scene in the IT miniseries involving showerheads in a locker room. That perhaps?

Hmm, I don't know that show by name but it's possible I may have tuned in just to see something horrible scene.

Don't want to generalize, but this could be a form of OCD (which is very misunderstood and comes in all shapes and sizes). Your brain is lying to you. Channeling Yoda here but you have to be mindful of your thoughts :) What's worked for me is to label thoughts like that "that's an OCD thought" takes a while but eventually the thought won't trigger the hamster wheel. http://hope4ocd.com/foursteps.php

I also have social anxiety and this is exactly it (your comment). Most people say I come across as intimidating and it takes a long time for me to become "normal" around someone, and have been told that I don't show any emotion.

But really, it's because the only emotion I feel is fear, and I try very hard to hide it. That's it. Thinking about it logically, it makes little sense. Similar to how a person may have depression, and to the outer world, their worries/fears may seem minute; yet to that person, it's all about the feeling, and the feeling is very real.

Yeah, this one is what I have. In my 20s I realized I cared about being social, and once I worked on it, it slowly became much less severe.

I have the same, but I don't think the fear is totally irrational. For me the fear is of being disliked and/or embarrassed by something I say or do. This is exacerbated by having the opposite of what the author of the article has - I read too much into negative social cues and take them personally. I don't have much capacity for going "oh, they're just having a bad day" - I take it on board and in my mind it's because of something I did or said. Unless I know someone well already, then I know their moods and can remove myself from the equation when they in bad ones.

For me it's a catch 22 as well. If I'm not feeling socially anxious then I'm relaxed and it's easy to have confidence. Then there is nothing to fear and I'm not reading into anything or taking anything personally and it's all very easy and fun. But if I'm feeling socially anxious then I'm more likely to come across as unfriendly or weird, read too much into social cues and feel negatively about myself at the end of the interaction. Which feeds the cycle.

Something that helps a lot is meditation and being in the now. It's very hard to be in the now during an anxious social situation, because your brain is trying so hard to distance itself from the situation and get you out of it with minimal damage. But acceptance of the situation and reminding yourself there's no lack and literally nothing to fear in the present moment can help. And definitely presence after a (maybe just perceived) negative social interaction can help a lot as well to break down the cycle.

Why do you care what other people think?

THAT'S NOT HOW MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS WORK.

1) it's how mine worked.

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Do_You_Care_What_Other_Pe... (probably would have worked better had I quoted it properly.)

The fear in itself might not be totally irrational, in the sense that it seems beneficial to have the capacity for this type of fear (for evo psych reasons, etc.)

However, I'm sure you'll agree that the fear in its context is irrational (which is what defines it as an anxiety disorder).

"As someone who really has social anxiety, this is not it. I have absolutely no issues understanding non-verbal communication. I'm simply scared of certain social situations, for no rational reason."

i can't say i have social anxiety, but i feel very similar in this instance. and, if i can judge based on this statement alone- i don't think it's fair for you to say your fear comes from "no rational reason".

a very rational reason to be afraid of verbal communication as opposed to text, is that text is a much easier medium to control your message.

there are a dozen benefits: you have more time to parse and consider what one says to you, you have more time to formulate your thoughts clearly, you are less open to your words or tone being misinterpreted, etc.

are you anxious right now? this is very much a social setting. if not- and i hope this doesn't sound insensitive- i'm left wondering, whats the difference? and, would identifying the difference help you overcome your anxiety?

Unless you're a practiced dissembler, I think tone is much less likely to be misinterpreted in person. This is the phenomenon where someone nods and says "yeah" in a conversation even though they didn't actually hear / misinterpreted what you said; your tone is still clear (we are friendly right now and this conversation is enjoyable) and they want to affirm it. Or why sarcasm is so hard to do right over the internet.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything in his post by which to dismiss nilkn's (and the medical community's) assertion that the fear comes from "no rational reason".

This is, after all, a defining feature of anxiety disorders.

Note that he doesn't say that this kind of fear in itself is not rational (propensity towards it might come in handy in certain social situations), but the degree of this kind of fear in the contexts that a diagnosis demands is totally irrational.

Even if we set aside the fact that the disorder in question does not deal with rational things, one can easily argue that (in this context) the text is more permanent, and can potentially reach many more than unrecorded spoken language.

Downsides include the opportunity to get stuck in a loop of doubt and rewriting the entire post. Misinterpretation of the written word is also common. Therefore, the trademark anxious rumination is not less likely to occur by virtue of the medium alone.

Some sufferers of social anxiety might be anxious in these settings, others might not.

All in all: interpretation based on assumptions helps no-one.

This first person account of social anxiety hits closer to home, for me at least:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2013/03/25/a-day...

He said he can understand non-verbal communication. It is just that he has to think about it before he does. I can relate to that.

I can also relate to you when you say you do your best to hide it. I never realized I did until now.

I've been experimenting with nootropics lately, and I think taurine and L-Theanine can help you greatly, with very low risk of side effects.

Why the downvotes? Look them up. L-Theanine is in green tea and taurine is in red bulls. Maybe they don't help, but they noticeably reduce anxiety in me.

Some folks here use downvote when they disagree, not to indicate that something is wrong with the comment. It helps in creating groupthink, because nobody likes being downvoted.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the fear of being downvoted leads to groupthink.

I mean, why would you care if someone disagrees with your comment? That really wouldn't lead you to self-censor.

Unless you had something important at stake, like reputation, which would only happen if your handle on here was linked to your real life name.

pg has said on several occasions that downvoting for disagreement is OK.

Personally, I use it not for mere disagreement, but for "I want HN to have less comments like this" -- things like gratuitous errors, gratuitous negativity, unneeded incivility, empty comments like "I agree", and especially comments that just repeat talking points without adding any original thought or substance.

He said it once. He also said that downvoting for disagreement is a problem - that's why comment scores are no longer shown.

He said it at least 3 times:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 "I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. Obviously the uparrows aren't only for applauding politeness, so it seems reasonable that the downarrows aren't only for booing rudeness."

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347 "Downvoting has always been used to express disagreement."

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658691 "IIRC we first had this conversation about a month after launch. Downvotes have always been used to express disagreement. Or more precisely, a negative score has: users seem not to downvote something they disagree with if it already has a sufficiently negative score."

I'm not aware of a comment where he said downvoting for disagreement is a problem. I recall comments about gratuitous negativity, and comments about how certain excessively rude comments were getting upvoted when they should be downvoted. But it's possible I'm behind the times on that front.

Thanks for those! I've added them to my list.

I can't cite sources, but the reason comment scores are no longer shown was because having comment scores was getting pg dragged into chest-beating karma competitions, so he hid the scores to have to deal personally with less of that. Having no scores showing prevents the scores from being a way that each "side" on an argument can keep score of "who is winning" so upvotes don't fuel those kinds of ego-based arguments anymore. It was effective in getting him what he wanted, though it was decried by many people for depriving them of information concerning comment quality that they had previously valued.

This is the post I was thinking of:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1057347

> My plan for dealing with downvoting is just not to display points on comments any more. The hard part is that to make that work, I also have to come up with alternative ways for people to find the comments they're most interested in on big threads.

But as you say there's probably more to it than that. I'll have a noodle around with search later to see if I can find more.

I am really, really terrible at finding things on HN, but I am inclined to remember things about social dynamics. Somewhere, he said something to the effect that he is being dragged into these arguments fueled by upvotes less often, so he feels that comment scores being hidden was successful in getting him what he wanted because he was spending too much time on that, so, no, comment scores are not likely to come back. You might look for some kind of follow up question of the Ask PG variety where people were hoping he would bring them back. It might have been something like that. (/Real hand wavy clues -- enjoy the hunt.)

You are diagnosing and recommending medical treatment to a complete stranger based on a comment on an internet forum.

Worse, you're doing so with all the experience and wisdom of an avid googler of nootropics.

Getting shitfaced on beer and Scotch works for some people as they self-medicate their social anxiety. For some people that turns from harmless social drinking to alcoholism and can destroy their lives.

In this particular case, excessive energy drink consumption (I personally tend to self-medicate with coffee to avoid the sugar in red bulls) can lead to heart attacks, high blood pressure and associated complications.

"Taurine is involved in a number of crucial physiological processes. However, its role in these processes is not clearly understood and the influence of high taurine doses on these processes is uncertain"

L-Theanine has more studies and is slightly better understood, but there still have not been full human trials and studies sufficient for you to provide medial information to a stranger.

Advancing a supplement as a cure can be harmful even if the supplement is harmless. If a person takes it for a cure instead of, say, talking to a therapist/doctor/psychologist, they could be missing out on an approach that actually DOES help. You may be familiar with Steve Jobs who delayed medical treatment for his cancer in an effort to use "alternative" cures.

Hey, you know what, it goes both ways.

Just because something is approved by the FDA doesn't mean that it's safe and effective. And, conversely, just because something isn't approved by the FDA doesn't mean it isn't safe and effective.

There isn't something magical about a clinical trial that suddenly removes all doubt about a substance. And this magical government agency isn't infallible, and has frankly made mistakes, some of them pretty major, in the past.

Let me share something with you. I've been suffering from severe RSI for close to 13 years. I've seen about five different doctors; I've had nerve conduction tests; I've had three rounds of physical therapy. Nothing works. I keep going back to the doctor, and they keep assigning physical therapy. Do you know why? Because, it's the only approved treatment that they can offer. Most of the doctors that I've seen refuse to even talk about anything else.

So I go out on my own, and I do some research, and I start trying things. Some herbal supplements, some alternative treatments. And you know what? This thing called trigger point massage therapy, in the span of about four months, improved my symptoms about 80%. I also found that B vitamin supplements helped with the nerve tingling issues. And that was several years ago and I'm still almost completely functional.

If I listened to people like you, I'd still be practically incapacitated and unable to support myself.

I think he's probably intelligent enough to look into any suggestions himself. After all, that's why people have ultimate control over their medical care. You're just being closed minded and pedantic, and your lecture on medical ethics is naïve.

So, if I may, get off your fucking high horse.

It's not like I'm telling this guy to go cut his left arm off. I'm basically doing the equivalent of telling him to go drink a bunch of cups of green tea and try a supplement of a compound that's so safe that it's approved for human consumption without a prescription. If it was dangerous, your precious FDA would yank it off the shelves in five minutes, right?

And if he tries my suggestion and it relieves his symptoms, even a little bit (even if it's placebo), then it's worth it. By all means, go see a doctor, but don't assume that doctors are all-knowing and all powerful and they are aware of and can prescribe the perfect treatment for your illness.

/edit I'll add that this is what happens when you leave mental health treatment exclusively to doctors. Hammer; nail, indeed. http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/23/study-two...

I just want to say this is an excellent comment and puts into words what I was thinking.

"Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." "

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> So, if I may, get off your fucking high horse.

You asked why the down-votes, but clearly didn't parse what I wrote.

I made no statements as to the efficacy of your proposed remedy, just that the problem is giving medical advice is dangerous, even if the substance is ultimately harmless (or even beneficial!).

There's nothing wrong with pursuing your own treatments, and I'm glad you've found things that work for you. I don't wish RSI on anyone.

It is, however, extremely wrong to give medical advice to strangers based on a single comment on an internet forum. You know virtually nothing about the individual, their symptoms or really anything at all about the specifics of the situation at hand.

Experts will want to know more about the specifics before providing advice. Fools tread where angels fear to go.

I'm sure you're in an expert in something. Whatever it is, think about the people who think they're experts in that from reading a wikipedia or newspaper article. Or heck, the newbies just starting out learning about that something. They are almost always so confident that they know the answer and share it with everyone around them. That confidence can be endearing and usually nothing horrible in consequences.

Not in the case of people's health. Consequences are too severe.

But should not people know what exists?, similar to the case above i had/have severe sinus almost blocked all of em. But symptoms are veery mild but all the english medical doctors (Allopathic) mentioned was that i need to go for surgey many of them not even willing try longer one week medicine where i had great releif with something like naso clear. But they would not try anything else but recommend surgery and tell me that it is not permenant cure??... so based on recommendation i tried Homeo it work only when take medicine and i did not like the achohol or similar substance in those medicines so tried Ayurvehda (did not want Siddha due to diet restriction) and took a 10 day message etc in ayuvedha medical college ($250 for 10 days can u beleive in with 2 bed and flat tv in room and neat and clean)... now i feel far beter... and have no headaches and can sleep well... yeah i think it is ok recommend but receiver should verify or go to experts

> For some people that turns from harmless social drinking to alcoholism and can destroy their lives.

What I'd give to go back five years and slap 20-year old me around...

I've turned my life around but I have zero friends to show for it- and I don't blame them.

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