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Comment by toddmorey | Hacker News Reader

I hear you, but it's important to note that it appears that Mercedes (a storied German luxury car with proven technology) currently has an even a lower reliability rating. That makes me think it's likely more than just company age and experience, I think there is something about a company's risk tolerance and how it relates to their eagerness to implement new tech. As the article states, the blander "appliance-like" cars might just be the most reliable.

And while I totally agree that owner bias is impacting the customer sat numbers, I think there's also a bit of a lift coming from Tesla's customer service, which gets pretty high marks. One of the smartest things they've done as a company is to invest heavily in service and responsiveness. A reliability issue sucks, but much less so if it can be resolved pleasantly and quickly.

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Shocking as it is (since I write software for a living) I buy only used cars with as few options as possible. All manual transmission, locks, windows and doors. I don't even have A/C in one of my two cars. Owning a car in America is like a tax: you need a car to have a meaningful participation in the economy. So while I admire Tesla's technology, through this lens I can't imagine buying one in this lifetime.

My father was the same way. My father's third new vechicle was a 90's Ford truck, and he didn't want "Anything exotic--in terms of accessories." Salesperson, "But of course you want the power windows?". Father, "No, I can roll up my own windows." Father, "Give me the truck, and throw in a factory service manual. Bye."

On the way home, I said, I remember your first car, that 50's something corvette, you bought had all the options, like FI, and even a clock. Father, "Son--back then, with just my Craftman's tool kit, I could repair anything in that car."

Father, "Yea, I have the money. I just don't like paying more for something that isn't a necessity. Plus, when the day comes that I can't roll up a window--put me in a home." He took a deep inhale on that Carlton light cigarette, and took a swig off the Mickey's beer between his legs.

His automobile sensibility rubbed off on me. I never buy a vechicle I can't work on. It hasn't been a positive with the ladies though. Actually, one time my VW broke down half way to Tahoe. My girlfriend, at the time, was complaining about my old cars. Plus, it was hot and she wasen't feeling well. I got luckey and it was a simple fix. We got back on the road, and stayed at the first motel that looked clean. That night, she said, "I don't mind your old cars. I though we were going to be stuck on that dusty road--for the night." I should have been better to her. I didn't realize how special she was at the time. The grass was not greener. I still think about her. I still think about my father.

Aint that a comnovel! Your father sounded like a nice guy. The advice is still sound.

I haven't owned a car since the 90s and I participate in the economy just fine. It's certainly more convenient to own a car, but you way overstated that

Depends on where you live and what you do.

Good point. However, your situation is a luxury afforded to you (I assume) by living in a place with proper public transit. A whole lot of people don't have that luxury.

Simply trading some luxuries for others. Owning a car is a luxury.

Only for people that live in high-population-density areas with meaningful public transit. Otherwise it's a practical necessity, unless having a job is a luxury as well.

You can move there.

Depends entirely on your location. Major US cities usually have at least functional public transit, but there are smaller towns that don't even have sidewalks. As far as they're concerned, you either drive or you don't leave your property.

I'm generally the same way. Also generally expensive cars -> expensive repairs. However Nissan Leaf's are selling for $10k on the used market. And Tesla is planning on a sub $40k model in 18 months. So stands to reason inexpensive used ones will appear on market in a few years.

Mercedes isn't a car you buy for reliability, and the core market are people who want to be seen driving Mercedes -- most of whom lease, because who wants to be seen driving an old car.

So yeah, they aren't Honda Accords. A friend had a "hanger queen" S class that was in the shop for 3 months in its first year. When the car itself is good, electronic doodads are supremely unreliable as well, reflecting poor reliability.

An old supervisor of mine was a Jaguar fan, and often bemoaned their reliability - "There are two days when you love your Jaguar: the day you buy it, and the day you sell it"

"The parts falling off this car are of the very finest British manufacture"

Sounds like the crux is that reliability means different things to different perspectives.

Those Mercs (or BMWs, or Audis) are targeted as lease-first cars, if you go larger than their compact sedans (C-Klasse, 3er, A4). The cars are built to swaddle you in luxury for 24-36 months or 30,000 miles, get a refurb, then get resold at 80% original price as Certified Pre-Owned vehicles. Then they need to start having small issues to maintain a relatively predictable revenue stream for the the dealership mechanic networks.

The CR notes are on the money -- really, the more tech in a car, the more likely you are to have issues. It's a big, heavy, complex dynamic system getting blasted with debris and weather. It's sometimes surprising just how durable some of the high-tech wizardry in modern autos is.

Tesla has a small rabid fan base (here and on Reddit) that are willing to overlook its shortcomings. If Tesla actually delivers on its Model 3 any time soon and manages to penetrate the mainstream at all, you can be sure those customers won't be giving Tesla a pass.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/3mtoxa/im_not_...

Take a look at that thread in /r/teslamotors (which is full of Tesla fanboys). Tesla's problems with quality and reliability are talked about as if that's what they're known for, and the comments are being upvoted (at the same time they're very optimistic about it improving but that's to be expected given its /r/teslamotors).

The problem for Tesla is they are 1990s Apple. A bigger problem for them is if when Apple enters the car market in 2020, they come in as 2015 Apple.

I own stock in the company but not anywhere near an owner of their cars, but my fan-boyism is based on the fact that this company is trying to push other larger car manufacturers into pushing forward instead of the same old same. Yeah they have some issues but they're quick at ironing them out on the new set of cars.

If and when the Model 3 releases will be the telling for Tesla. For now I will keep my stock.

If 97% of current Tesla owners would buy Tesla again, then perhaps the fanbase here and on Reddit is typical of all Tesla owners?

  Still, despite the problems and complaints, Tesla owners
  remain happy about their cars. According to its survey,
  Consumer Reports said that 97 percent of owners would buy
  their car again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/21/business/consumer-reports-...

> A reliability issue sucks, but much less so if it can be resolved pleasantly and quickly.

I think a lot of people understand that a car is a very complex piece of technology, with more failure points than they can enumerate. They don't mind minor issues, as long as it's fixed timely and without much energy spend from the owner.

minor issues are issues that does not render the car unusable.

Anecdotal evidence, on my work we have a variety of laptops. A Lenovo was having issues with the trackpad. I created a ticket, and the next day a technician was onsite and fixed it. We also had an Asus that was having issues with the screen, so we created a ticket and we had to ship it away for 5 weeks before it was back. We're only buying laptops with onsite support now, even when they cost a premium, because the alternative is buying a new laptop if one of them has any issues that needs to be fixed.

> A reliability issue sucks, but much less so if it can be resolved pleasantly and quickly

Much less so ? Nonsense.

If a car is out of warranty and it continues to suffer from systemic reliability issues it is irrelevant how good the service is. You will still be significantly out of pocket and unable to sell the car on the used market.

Model S went into production in 2012[0] and has an infinite mile warranty for 8 years. These cars won't be out of warranty until 2020. It has no limit on owners and applies retroactively. Even tesla roadsters won't be out of warranty yet as they were produced in 08'. Given that there are about 2400 of them, most drivers won't pay out of pocket with a tesla for half a decade. The ones who bought roadsters are risk tolerant wealthy technophiles, who likely have repurchased Tesla cars. While I don't have data on that, if you pay over 100k for what was one of the first production electric vehicles from an unknown company and entrepreneur at the time, you have to be bullish on tech., the environment and have the funds to satiate your curiosity.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S [1]http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/infinite-mile-warranty

For whatever it's worth, there are owners on the Tesla motors subreddit who say they have issues and that Tesla won't fix because they are out of warranty.

One guy was over the mileage too (I don't remember the amount but it was absurdly high to be honest).

So maybe the limitations are different from place to place?

The Model S infinite mile warranty is only for the drivetrain and battery. All the other parts that people have been having problems with - the doors and door handles, the sunroof, etc - have a 4-year, 50000 mile warranty. (That may seem backwards, but yes, the door handle warranty really is limited-mileage whilst the drivetrain one is unlimited.)

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