Similarities between the behavioural effects of oxytocin and alcohol | Hacker News Reader

Similarities between the behavioural effects of oxytocin and alcohol

eurekalert.org

Interesting. SWIM always felt that MDMA(Dosed correctly) gives many of the same effects as Alcohol.

It does take a long time to learn how to control MDMA and i think that it's mostly because of the intense Oxytocin overload which can make people do weird shit like taking of all their clothes, touching and feeling others inappropriately, trusting people they shouldn't etc. But once you know your dose SWIM think it's a great alternative to alcohol. At least for SWIM, it has many of the same desirable effects, that alcohol does, and i think that a large part of that, is the Oxytocin

If you think about it, it's kind of the same with alcohol. For me at least, it took a looong time to control, and to this day i still can't control it though that's mainly because of culture on social norms where we encourage and pace each other to get gobsmacked drunk. And lets be honest, alcohol makes us do weird shit too..

This article shines some light on SWIM's experience, and i can only nod while reading through the article.. And maybe, just maybe SWIM could try clean Oxytocin sometime in the future.

>SWIM

sigh this term is so moronic

It brings back memories... of when someone told me about seeing it on a forum I've never been to.

Yes it is sir.. And so are the laws put in place to control psycho active substances

Nothing about disavowing your own opinions makes them compelling to me.

I feel silly asking, but what does it mean?

Someone Who Isn't Me. Common term on drug-related forums. Typically because forums don't want people talking about their own drug use, presumably for liability reasons.

Because I'm sure it would hold up in court. "Your honor, my client was clearly talking about someone who isn't them." "CASE DISMISSED." cheers erupt around the courtroom

I suspect it's less about what would hold up in court vs. allowing people who would otherwise feel the need to act a fig leaf to look the other way.

Sort of like phrasing an interview question like this:

"First let me say we don't do drugs tests AND it does not look like your doing drugs right this second. Now, with that in mind are you currently... "

"By currently you mean right this second?" "Yes"

"Well then no."

Sure, both sides knew the correct answer to that question, but the desired box was checked.

I don't really buy it. I work on oxytocin in the lab and while it has some interesting psychosocial effects to compare it to alcohol is a bit disingenuous.

They give it to pregnant women postpartum primarily to stop bleeding and unless you're bumping the dosage way up so that it can cross the bbb then It's not going to do much.

Edit: To the comment below suggesting oxytocin as a disruptor. The PK profile for OT is pretty underwhelming. Unless you inject it or snort it you wont get great absorption.

  Dr Gillespie added, "I don't think we'll see a time when 
  oxytocin is used socially as an alternative to alcohol. 
  But it is a fascinating neurochemical and, away from
  matters of the heart, has a possible use in treatment of
  psychological and psychiatric conditions.

Alcohol being the great social lubricant with some nasty side effects on your health - definitely feels like it could be disrupted by a "safer" oxytocin based product. Has a similar feeling to vaping vs smoking.

I would imagine a dose of oxytocin would produce a different concentration pattern of the hormone in your body versus normal/natural production - are there any known studies of long term effects of Oxytocin usage?

There is a better product / drug already:

It's called GHB, is endogenous to the body, has similar effects like alcohol, but is less toxic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid

This is probably a good place to point out that GHB is not, in fact, completely safe. It can easily kill you when combined with other depressants, particularly alcohol. It's also physically addictive, and the associated withdrawal can be fatal. It's also been used as a 'date rape' drug due to the fact that relatively small doses can cause a 'coma'.

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_health.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid#Adve...

All of which would be true of alcohol if it was primarily consumed at 200 proof.

I didn't hear the parent claim that GHB was completely safe. There is plenty of evidence, however, that it is safer and less toxic than ethanol.

This is not true: GHB is addictive, very hard to dose and in combination with the most used 'night life' drug (alcohol) actually toxic and lethal in small doses. It's also known as the 'date rape drug' for this very reason.

> actually toxic and lethal in small doses

Yeah I'm going to call bullshit on that unless you provide a source. The interesting thing about GHB is that it is less toxic in higher doses, but I've never read that it's lethal in low doses.

My source is me having found two victims of GHB poising in the gutter, quite literally.

The girl had previous (voluntary) experience with the drug and managed to lock herself in the toilet before passing out. I found her with with several bruises over her face after we broke down the door. The guy was beaten, robbed and left in a bush and that's were we found him. Because I served both their drinks over the night I knew they didn't consume 'too much' alcohol, the girl claimed she could tell the GHB from both the smell(?) of her drink and effect it had on her.

Yes, until the whole room full of people are unconscious due to ingesting a few ml's too much of it.

You should at least explain why you might want to say that: yes, GHB has fewer chronic effects on health (or possibly none). In that sense it's "better" than alcohol, assuming all users dose it correctly. This is, for example, why GHB has been successfully used to fight insomnia.

However, life-threatening acute toxicity is easier to accidentally attain than with alcohol, because of the lower active dose and absence of harsh digestive reactions like alcohol tends to cause before acute poisoning. This makes alcohol compatible with reckless party settings, where GHB would become very dangerous.

Concerning the addiction potential, comparing GHB and alcohol is like comparing two genocides of two types of plagues: they both suck.

As for the whole 'date rape' argument, it really shows an excessive media demonization based on a few isolated cases, as opposed to the non-stop global catastrophe of date rapes caused by alcohol. I suppose nobody talks about those because, well, "it's nothing out of the ordinary".

Addendum: I didn't mean to claim that GHB was in any way safer.

As far as I know, it's therapeutic index is similar to the one of alcohol.

> Alcohol being the great social lubricant with some nasty side effects on your health - definitely feels like it could be disrupted by a "safer" oxytocin based product. Has a similar feeling to vaping vs smoking.

Except it doesn't work that way. People didn't give up smoking in favour of vaping, they do both. Smokers still smoke cigarettes, even though they use e-cigarettes. About the only larger group that uses e-cigarettes instead of traditional tobacco is teenagers, since they can't legally buy tobacco.

Is this based on some stats? Because it does not gel with my anecdata. Most vapers I know are full on vapers.

If they smoke cigarettes it's only because their battery has run out.

Based on my entirely anecdotal evidence:

* I know one smoker who also vapes

* I know one smoker who switched to vaping before going back to smoking because he found it hard to limit his vaping (because number of cigarettes is easier to measure)

* I know several vapers who either don't smoke or gave up smoking in favour of vaping

* I know several smokers who aren't interested in vaping

None of them is younger than 25.

> I know one smoker who switched to vaping before going back to smoking because he found it hard to limit his vaping (because number of cigarettes is easier to measure)

This was my problem. Went to vaping to quit and ended up making the addiction worse because it is really easy to mindless puff away. I've seen newer models with USB that you can limit the number a draws on though so that might be a good option.

His problem was that he kept pulling out the vaporizer for a few quick puffs, which added up to a lot more than the extended smoking sessions cigarettes require.

Do you have some data to back up those assertions?

In my personal anecdotal experience, the opposite is true. After having smoked cigarettes for over a decade (I'm in my mid twenties) I switched to vaping and can't even smoke a full cigarette now, the taste feels disgusting and the satisfaction just isn't there any more.

Most smokers I know who got into vaping are the same way, but obviously this is still anecdotal. I'm not aware of any respectable studies on the question, but clearly at least the statement "it doesn't work that way" is false in general.

Anecdote warning, but I'm 38 and completely switched methods of nicotine ingestion over just a couple of days. I knew I liked the mild stimulant effects of nicotine. I knew they helped immensely with my ADHD symptoms. And I knew that stopping use would suck (both in terms of the temporary withdrawal and the longer term lack of something I knew existed that was desirable).

So when vaporizers improved to the point where I could use one dependably and reliably, I switched in the time it took to finish my last pack of smokes. I'm well aware that sucking nicotine mist with a bit of glycerine and and even tinier amount of food-grade flavoring is less healthy than breathing only fresh country air, results of every chemical analysis I've read (made with a good device, properly used, and with good quality liquid) show me that I'm getting the "active ingredient" with drastically less risky compounds than the inhaling of burning leaves. The less-healthy stuff that is in it is found in much lower levels than in cig smoke.

Regardless, not trying to be one of "those guys" and I typically don't go out of my way to even talk about this stuff because nobody has any reason to care about my personal conclusions about addictive stimulants.

At the same time, of every adult I know who uses a vaporizer, none of them smokes more than a cig/cigar or two per year anymore and the vast majority lose their taste for smoking after the first few days getting used to the less immediate dose from nicotine vapor versus combusted tobacco.

(also teenagers can't legally buy nicotine solution either. Never stopped them with cigs but I don't know any teenagers currently so I can't speak to their nicotine use or preferred delivery methods).

I know quite a few people who have drastically reduced their alcohol consumption after starting to take MDMA infrequently.

For some, the taste somehow changed, making it less desirable (up to two weeks after a dose of MDMA). Others prefer to take MDMA every 4 or 5 weeks and just stay completely sober in between.

GABA is the main inhibiting transmitter in the central nervous system. The opponent of cortisol which facilitates stress and alertness, so to say.

I dare to say that everything that calms the body, like alcohol, other drugs (GHB), or going to sleep has to do with GABA ;).

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