Hacker News Reader

Comment by MichaelGG | Hacker News Reader

It's amazing where they are asked for, too, and how easily people give them out. Get Comcast cable? They ask for SSN, but it's not a showstopper. I just told them I didn't have one, and that was that.

But a prepaid T-Mobile, recharging via CC over the phone? Asked for SSN and insisted. When I said I was Canadian, they insisted on the Canadian equivalent. Had to hang up and get another rep.

Why do Americans just go along with it and give their SSN out? Just say you don't have one. Canada does it right. Upon getting a SIN, the government is very clear that you are not obligated to give it out and that companies cannot refuse service if you do not provide it.

View on HN

The problem is that private US companies are allowed to refuse you service if they ask for a SSN and you do not provide it.

A while back, in 2007, I think, I tried to get copper-loop telephone service to my house, with AT&T. They wanted a SSN. I wouldn't give it. So they refused to give me dial tone.

And I haven't given AT&T a single penny since, more due to the snotty, imperious, Ernestine-like attitude I got from every single customer service rep I talked to than any great reluctance to hand over some 9-digit number. I actually haven't had any copper-loop phone service at all since. It's been all VoIP and mobile, and I only have the latter by spouse mandate.

I have since given up the fight against misuse of SSNs. It's Sisyphus rolling the boulder uphill--a constant, arduous struggle that ultimately produces no useful results.

Refusing to give it to them is different than saying you don't have one. A lot of people will act hostile if you refuse them. But if you just lie about it and say you don't have one, then they seem to be more understanding. That's been my experience anyways.

It would be nice if the USG would fix this and force it to be optional. Companies might refuse you credit without a check, but not service.

And really, who wants credit? I signed up with Fido (cell) in Canada, and the rep was going on about how since I was new, I'd have only $300 credit, but they'd raise it later. I laughed and said I would like to lower it. He was genuinely confused why I wouldn't want more credit. The fact that my service plan is only $60 a month so anything near $300 is fraud wasn't understood. (Fido charges $6 per kilobyte for US data roaming.)

Lying would be a functional workaround rather than active pushback. I specifically wanted them to justify their reasons for wanting the number, and why it would even be necessary to provide dial tone. Are you administering a government benefit? Are you acting as a tax withholding agent? No? Then you don't need to have my SSN, and it is a significant risk to me for me to give it to you. So I really need some rational justification for it.

I already suspected the true reason. It was probably so they could more easily send and receive credit reporting information to the 3 big CRAs. And that's why I offered to pay for a year of service in advance. But they stuck to their "we just need it" and "it's company policy" non-reasons to the end. And when I heard about their data breach in April, I felt so much schadenfreude welling up within me that I just couldn't stop grinning, until I remembered that no one actually cares any more.

I can't wait until mainstream businesses and government offices drop their PSTN numbers and start accepting synchronous audio-stream sessions (or "calls") between endpoints identified by a URN or user address.

I hate, I hate, I hate "the telephone company".

I'm not sure whether it's the reason T-Mobile is asking for it, but a number of countries have added identification requirements for mobile-phone services, due to pressure from law-enforcement agencies, who don't like the possibility that people can buy anonymous "burner" phones & SIMs. In Denmark nowadays nobody will sell you a SIM without tying it to a national ID number. Bank accounts have similar requirements, to combat money laundering and tax avoidance.

Yeah, last year when traveling in Europe with a friend we had all sorts of trouble trying to get her a SIM card in Germany. They insisted they could only sell it if we provided the address of a German resident to tie the account to.

A German-speaking friend helped us solve it (I still don't know exactly what he worked out with them), but it wasn't a pleasant experience. Especially since in France we literally just walked into an Orange shop, and I said, in my bad US-high-school French, "Nous voulons acheter une carte SIM", and they said "OK", quoted a price and that was that.

Yeah I've run into that. End up finding locals to buy phones for me.

In this case (~2006) T-Mobile was insisting that American Express would not process my charge if T-Mobile didn't submit my SSN along with the charge. Which is obviously just false (Amex verified this to me).

A funnier thing I've seen in Guatemala is that many places will ask you to write your phone number down on the CC voucher. They say it's for "security", as if someone using a stolen card would provide their real number. They don't verify the number as they just take it along with the signature, they just make a big fuss to get something written down.

I'm Canadian and just moved to the US. While utilities were pretty good about me not having a SSN (including Verizon), it's all the stuff that comes after that's causing me problems. So many web sites either rely on having an SSN on file, or by contracting to a 3rd party to do identity checks that fail when you don't have a US credit history.

I'm currently in Limbo with my healthcare provider because they won't let me pay my bills online (or set up appointments, see results, or email my doctor) until I validate my identity, I've had to do my auto registration through snail mail because the state's website won't recognize my SSN, and have also had to call other places to get set up on their websites because of having no SSN when I started.

You mentioned T-Mobile, who were pretty good in getting me set up without a credit check, but won't auto debit my credit card when I have a bill. I have to go online each month and pay, with that same credit card. And getting to that point took a couple of phone calls.

What happens if you just make one up? Would that be fraud?

Yes.

I'm pretty sure foreign residents get an Individual Tax ID Number (TIN). [1] Not sure why @swalberg doesn't have one...

[1] https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Taxp...

I need an SSN so I can pay into social security and eventually make use of those benefits. Also pretty sure I couldn't have applied for it in advance because I didn't have any non-tax treaty income to report, which is what prevented me from getting one when I tried a few years ago.

I applied for a SSN when I got here but it took 4 weeks to process. I now have an SSN card with a statement on it saying that I'm only allowed to work with DHS authorization.

Part of the hassle is because I signed up for services with no SSN but web sites all assume you have an SSN. The other problem is that credit histories don't cross the border. Even with an SSN, I've got no public record or credit history.

What I find funny (or sad) is that when I call to update my records with my SSN (largely so I can build a credit history) people refuse to take the number over the phone, and will not take an email scan. They only want snail mail or fax.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com