Harsh Justice In China
economist.com
economist.com
China is providing infrastructure, healthcare, education, and equal rights (sexual, ethnic, etc) for those people. The chinese system creates a socially harmonious system (if you have been in china, you will know it is a very peaceful country), while forcing progress.
Yes, for this, some rights are given up. Yes, dissent is not allowed. But it only takes a few dissenters to destroy a system. Dissent has to be kept to a minimum while the country marches forward.
There are two ways to progress : by letting everyone say everything they want, which has so far led to huge wars and a LOT of failed states, or by having a burocratic and strong leadership at the top that does extensive long term planning. This has been shown to work (Singapore, China, Malaysia, Botswana).
It's easy to say that China should be more free. But the practical result will be death, war and suffering. An educated and knowledgable society in future will be well equiped to avoid war. Let china achieve a certain status, then we can talk about relaxing the system.
Till then, for progress to continue, the policy of social harmony is not optional.
Easy to say when others are the ones being forced into "harmony" and you are the citizen of a democratic Western country,and it is not your rights that are sacrificed "for the greater good".
What's tricky? The easy way is to conduct a thought experiment - given a choice, would you live in a violent democracy like the USA or a "peaceful" dictatorship like China? And guess what, you do have a choice (modulo some paperwork) to live where you want. Let's see you go live in the rising superpower :-).
More seriously, the argument is not that there aren't good points about every society/ country/political system. Of course there are, if you look hard enough.
A system's goodness should be judged by the people who live under it and the Chinese don't have the luxury of choosing what system they live under. Till they do, and voluntarily choose "harmony" over the right of free speech (say), any "goodness" of the dictatorship is purely hypothetical.
Anyhow, I didn't (and don't, any further,) intend to argue politics on this thread. It is just that I am a bit sensitive to people advocating that others suffer "for the greater good", while avoiding any sacrifice themselves.
Sure, why not?
I am not talking of visiting China (I'd love to. I am sure the people are great, as is the food). I am not talking of living there a few years either (I wouldn't that either mind as long as I can hack my way through the firewall to access the Internet and read and post what I choose and run back home if things get too tough).
I am talking of (as a thought experiment) you giving up your US (or whatever) citizenship and applying for Chinese citizenship. Not quite the same eh? Very few people crossed the Berlin Wall from West to East. Many died trying to go the other way.
The point is, citizens of other countries can enjoy living in China(or North Korea) if their tastes runs to "social harmony" precisely because they have an ever present escape hatch. Without it things look very different.
China is not as developed as the west. East Berlin was not as developed as West Berlin. People make the move not for freedom, but for economic opportunity.
When china is richer than the U.S and people can earn more money there and live better, you will see huge migration into china.
In many ways I think the Chinese are more free than other societies. There are also many different types of people there, and even different cultures.
Like in all countries, elements are corrupt. They do a lot of bad, but also a lot of good.
If you don't mind living in a certain way, and you are mentally sane, then it is an ok place to be I think. They just don't tollerate people going against their way.
Living in china as a foreigner is much more difficult than other countries. You have issues like getting visas where you can not leave the country for years at a time. Also it can be hard to get your money out of the country. Basically they want people who will fit in, and really love china enough to stay there for a long time. You also have to register, or stay at foriegn licenced hotels. However, I guess every country has tough immigration rules.
cya.
Actually, not so much. For most countries you can't just go there, you would have to either marry in or get a job there. Getting a job can be harder because most countries have rules in place to force their companies to hire their own citizens.
I do wish it could be a lot easier to move between countries so that countries would be forced to compete with each other. Of course the countries would do what they could (as they do now) to make people think they are better off than they are now.
India has almost as many people as China (some day it will have more) and arguably more diversity and it still manages reasonably well as a democracy.
It's easy for you to say that the indian system is better - but I think when the tire is thrown around your neck and petrol doused on you, you will gladly exchange not being able to open flickr for that.
Thats funny (and inaccurate). Because a lot of Indian border clashes are against the Chinese. India and China have a long standing border dispute.
Also - I've never been to China so can't comment. But news sources say that India has a better human rights record than China. So the probability of throwing tire around the neck and petrol dousing is higher in China than in India. That stuff doesn't happen in India without consequences.
(Disclosure: I'm an Indian.)
Ultimately, when your child dies because a bridge falls down, or the water is dirty, or you are forced to move out of your home for a dam to be built, and then the state imprisons you for having the cheek to complain, you will wish you are not in China.
Wikipedia: "The Great Leap Forward of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social plan used from 1958 to 1961 which aimed to use China's vast population to rapidly transform China from a primarily agrarian economy by peasant farmers into a modern communist society through the process of agriculturalization and industrialization. Mao Zedong based this program on the Theory of Productive Forces. It ended in catastrophe as it triggered a widespread famine that resulted in tens of millions of deaths."
Count any lynchings against that.
Are you going to go on next about the illegal wall against the mongolians?
I don't think China is a fantastic country, but if what we do produces even worse results and even more misery (I don't know that we are, but it could obviously be argued) then how can we say we know better?
Note that the 1700 refers to death penalty killings, which American is unique amongst developed countries to still have, and is as bad as China is this. The fact it puts them on a list with, for example, China, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia should be a reason enough to get rid of it.
For example, you think it's clear cut that US citizens being able to get some link on the Internet puts them above China citizens. There are many problems with this line of reason:
1) People in China can get on the web as well. Due to how the firewalling work, most probably don't even realize it happens. Just sometimes they try a link that times out. Happens all the time. Are you sure it isn't already happening to you?
2) Are you sure the information you're seeing is true? In some cases you wont have any way of completely proving one way or another.
3) For some countries, seeing the info doesn't affect anything because of the level of indoctrination the people go through. For example, you can point out what ever you like to a Scientologist, you wont change their mind because their indoctrination will prevent them from believing you or your source. Are you sure you or the citizens of your country don't also have this problem?
> I'm not a fan of China's government either (though I hate the US' about equally), but I really think this argument is vastly more complex than you're presenting.
I don't think America is without problems, and I think the direction it is going, especially w.r.t corporations is alarming, but it cannot be compared to China.
> 1) People in China can get on the web as well. Due to how the firewalling work, most probably don't even realize it happens. Just sometimes they try a link that times out. Happens all the time. Are you sure it isn't already happening to you?
The link is not "some link", it was a link to an organisation that reports on deaths in police custody. They probably do dead trees and libraries as well. Yes, I'm sure the US government is firewalling the internet. Some of it we have already heard about, some of it we'll hear about in the future. For that reason, it doesn't bother me.
> 2) Are you sure the information you're seeing is true? In some cases you wont have any way of completely proving one way or another.
Well, for example, the USA confess around 1000 deaths in custody between 2003 and 2005. That sounds pretty bad, but I suppose they could have rounded it down. The point is you have to trust systems, and the only systems you can trust are ones that are self-correcting, with independent actors and oversight.
3) For some countries, seeing the info doesn't affect anything because of the level of indoctrination the people go through. For example, you can point out what ever you like to a Scientologist, you wont change their mind because their indoctrination will prevent them from believing you or your source. Are you sure you or the citizens of your country don't also have this problem?
No, that would be impossible to prove. I can claim that I currently believe that I believe very little, but that doesn't really help. I mean, I don't actually know China exists at all.
Look at is like this: From China's perspective, the problems we are talking about here are not problems, they are features of a system designed to control the population in every way. Whereas from America's perspective, if these things are happening, they are a big problem that needs fixing. That doesn't mean they aren't happening in American, but they aren't the aim. You need a pretty big conspiracy to make American as bad as China.
Can I also suggest reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society Obviously there is a trade-off with levels of crime, poverty and so on, but I'd rather live in an albeit imperfect western open society, or even India, than China.
Can't it? Bush was basically a criminal who used a convenient (for him) tragedy to make billions for his pals. Then "change" came and now Obama is making billions for his buddies on Wall Street. The corruption is open and obvious. It's not the same kinds of corruption as China, but it's hard for me to call one evil and the other a beacon of hope.
>The point is you have to trust systems, and the only systems you can trust are ones that are self-correcting, with independent actors and oversight.
True, but my point was that most people simply trust someone somewhere is doing this due diligence. Some of us may even bother reading up on it enough to satisfy ourselves that it's happening. But without actually being involved you can't be certain. Maybe people in China and North Korea think their government also has these kind of due diligence mechanisms.
>Some of it we have already heard about, some of it we'll hear about in the future. For that reason, it doesn't bother me.
This is actually something scary that's happening world wide. Gradually locking down the Internet so you wont hear about these anymore. I hope someone comes up with some good peer-to-peer technology to combat this soon.
>No, that would be impossible to prove. I can claim that I currently believe that I believe very little, but that doesn't really help. I mean, I don't actually know China exists at all.
But you can easily prove China exists by going there and spending some time there. But as long as people aren't willing to look for themselves, what I describe will be very possible.
I used to believe the US was the greatest nation on earth. Then I came to Europe and found it to be much better in so many things.
>Can I also suggest reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society Obviously there is a trade-off with levels of crime, poverty and so on, but I'd rather live in an albeit imperfect western open society, or even India, than China.
Agreed, but what one has to keep in mind is: what is the end state? How do you want the world to be? Personally I want to live in a world where people only have to work on what they find interesting. Everyone knows that people who love something produce better work in that area than people who don't. This whole site is (or used to be) based around the idea of making a start up and getting rich from it some how. But why? So we can work on what we're interested in, of course. Wouldn't it be nice to just skip that middle part and start working on what you like from the start, without having to worry about financial independence?
Now, which government is getting me closer to that? The US? No, they seem to be rapidly going the opposite direction. China doesn't look good, but they are still in development. Who knows what kind of society they will end up with. Given the track record of humanity, probably not with a very good one, but no other country has anything to offer them.
The dictatorships in Latin America had economic progress, but a lot of problems were simply ignored and ended up been tackled in the 80s with a lot of pain.
Corruption was rampant but people didn't know about it because it simply didn't show up in the press. People seem to think it magically appeared overnight when the military left power.
A lot of money was ill-spent and huge debts were made which aren't well explained.
There were megaprojects, just as China has now, but simple things like sanitation, housing, and education were ignored. Urban centres grew with little or no planning, resulting in the chaos we now have.
So I'm afraid you can't simply take away accountability and hope for the best.
China has an elite class. Do you know how hard it is to get into the communist party? Do you know you have to be REALLY good to be invited in. The party selects intelligent and competent people to enter the leadership class a.k.a, the party.
It doesn't matter. You still get killed or tortured and imprisoned if you think the "elite leadership" is wrong and express your opinion. An "elite" gang of thugs is still a gang of thugs, only more dangerous than your usual garden variety hoodlum.
I suspect the Mafia is also "Invite Only" as is Al Quaeda. That doesn't make them desirable arbiters of your life and happiness.
When the military took power in Brazil in 1964, there was celebration in the streets. In the rich part of town, of course.
Your vision of an 'enlightened elite' is bit scary.
America has its leadership colleges and power families, same as france and a lot of western countries. You don't call it a political party, but it is.
Look at singapore, malaysia, botswana - what do they have in common in terms of leadership? What has been the result?
It's easy to accept what they tell you about democracy without really thinking about it. But actually consider the REAL systems of successful societies. They are not democratic.
You have strange definitions of "political party" ;-).
"Look at singapore, malaysia, botswana - what do they have in common in terms of leadership? "
Are you trolling? All of these leaders are elected in democratic elections. Singapore is a somewhat borderline case and comes closest to a dictatorship in terms of restrictions on citizens, but it is still a long way away from the Communist dictatorship of China. I doubt Singaporeans are regularly killed for political dissent.
No one argues against having good leaders (educated, visionary etc) as long as the governed people can decide what exactly is "good leadership", hold their leaders accountable and remove them from power peacefully if they think the leadership is corrupt/inefffective etc. For this you need the ability for a citizen to express an opinion without fear of being killed or imprisoned.
If chinese leadership were corrupt, then they will be immediately removed by the large number of intelligent people who are in the upper part of the party.
Those countries I listed all have a similar system, and power is handed from one member of this elite ruling class to the next - strangers or opposition don't jump in and take over power. Yes, there is democracy, but there is no chance of someone not in the system getting into the class.
Yes, what I'm advocating here is the complete opposite of everything you have been brought up to believe - but the difference between me and you is that I think about even the things you are supposed to accept. Democracy is good - whoever would think to question that? You should. Question everything, even the things you think are obvious.
To truly understand, you need to believe in what is wrong for a while. Only then can you understand both extremes of force and see where the truth lies.
Ahh Belief preceeds understanding. First believe then understand. Sounds like some religious cult. I have nothing more to say to you sir. Good Day!
Personally, I question the need for government at all, but above all I find one must be practical. What works... works. I think a real, advanced anarchist system has never been allowed to be tried (for obvious reasons) but without testing it I'm not convinced it couldn't work.
I certainly don't approve of a people who have, frankly, produced a pretty awful system condemning someone else who also has an awful system (which has a different set of plus and minus points).
Nor does being a member of the party suddenly make you a member of the "leadership class". For her, it's like a club membership, she pays some small dues every year and in return she can put it on her resume when she wants to. It also helped her avoid some prereqs in college. I guess if she wanted to dig further and start attending meetings regularly she could use it for networking.
In short, being in the party != being a member of the ruling oligarchy which calls the shots here. If you want to do that, marry into the family of someone who has a good government post.
Who is to say that any country has reached such an enlightened state. Your argument stands against any instance of democracy.
I don't agree with almost anything you said here, but the above statement can easily be contradicted by taking India's experiences since Independence into account.
Let me just add, that whatever else the lower classes in India might lack compared to the lower classes in China, the one thing they don't lack, is the voice (and opportunity) to descent. I experienced this first hand during my recent trip to India where a highway I was traveling on was blocked by about 50 subsistence farmers protesting the lack of water in their fields. Whether these kinds of protests are constructive or not, I do not imagine any subsistence farmers in China have the opportunity to block a heavily used highway for a whole day without facing severe punishments.