Comment by Synaesthesia | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Synaesthesia | Hacker News Reader

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That was state socialism, not a true communist society. Any form of repression, coercion and control are condemned by anarchists / libertarian socialists. The USSR was certainly a state which was did of that.

The reason why the USSR was trumpeted as socialist was that it suited both sides' propaganda to do so. For the Americans, to vilify socialism, and for the Russians to give their rule the appearance of genuine socialism. When both of the major propoganda systems in the world agree on something it's bound to become a popular conception.

But let us not also forget that hundreds of millions starved in non-communist India, which suffered terrible famines up to 1948.

South and Central America was a horror chamber throughout the 1950's-1980's under violent brutal capitalist dictatorships supported by the USA. Many Asian countries too.

The rise of communism in China, although violent and of the state-socialist kind, also brought hundreds of millions out of poverty.

"The rise of communism in China, although violent and of the state-socialist kind, also brought hundreds of millions out of poverty. " - Modern China's rise has come Capitalism, and liberalisation of the markets.

Before the market reforms china, wasn't... great.

Nope it really wasn't. There was massive chaos during the economic upheavals of Mao. But the reduction in poverty is still an impressive achievement subsequently to that. Compared to countries like Brazil, South Africa etc which also had the oppurtunities to reduce poverty but it has increased and the economic disparity is worse than ever. Even the USA has increasing poverty.

Can I have some data on this?

From what I know it was the collectivisations of farmlands that caused great famines.

When land rights were re-established, poverty was reduced. People had an incentive improve the land.

Well you're right, forced Stalinist style collectivization was a murderous failure. The poverty reduction was still made by a communist regime was the point I was trying to make. It's a poor example for what I'm trying to prove, Voluntary collectivization would be what I endorse. More like the kibbutzim of Israel.

"The rise of communism in China, although violent and of the state-socialist kind, also brought hundreds of millions out of poverty."

Indeed, absolute world poverty has halved over the last 30 years because of state-socialism. Oops sorry, it was capitalism that halved poverty, not socialism. What a mistake to make!

"That was state socialism, not a true communist society."

Ah. the "No true Scotsman fallacy". It would be funny it it weren't for the countless millions of tortured and murdered women, children, peasants...

It's not funny. It's also got nothing to do with Libertarian socialism, which is simply a a democratic economic system. The USSR was a system with concentrated power which directed from above.

Right wing Marxists such as Bolsheviks have always had deep divides with left wing Marxists and anarchists.

There's no "no true Scotsman fallacy" there, given that the structure of the regime did not even fit any of the definitions of communism that the regime itself gave.

Not even the Bolsheviks saw the USSR as a communist society. In fact, long after their coup, even Bolshevik ideologues were arguing about how many generations it would take before communism might be possible in the USSR.

Lenin, on introducing NEP in 1921 expected it to need to be in place for decades before even trying more far reaching socialist policies, much less communism.

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