Pandora Acquires TicketFly for $450M | Hacker News Reader

Pandora Acquires TicketFly for $450M

start.ticketfly.com

121 pointstimthimmaiah90 comments

> The Pandora app is the single most-used mobile app in the world

Can this possibly be true? More used than Apple/Google/Spotify music apps maybe, but Facebook? Google search seems hard to believe too?

I mean 80m users, "many on their phone" when Facebook have put up 1b users in the same day and I'm pretty sure surpassed 50%+ mobile usage?

This claim is really lofty. You also have to consider that Pandora has 80 MM users in a month. Facebook has 1250 MM mobile users in a month. The average Facebook user spends around 20 minutes on it a day (40 minutes for average US user).

Even Pandora's claims against Spotify seem pretty suspect. While Spotify presumably has less active users (75 MM, assuming monthly), I'd bet their users spend more time using the service (given that roughly 1/3 of Spotify's actives have subscriptions to the service).

Perhaps they define usage based on time?

It seems reasonable that users would spend 1b/80m = 13 times the amount of time listening to music than they do interacting with Facebook.

If you're going to use that metric, use ~1.25 B for Facebook (monthly actives on mobile).

1.25B/80m = ~16 times. The average Facebook user in the US spends about 40 minutes on FB per day (not sure of mobile vs desktop breakdown):

16*40minutes = 10 hours per day on Pandora on average. Absolutely no way.

I'm not sure if "checking facebook" is the same as "interacting with facebook"

> Perhaps they define usage based on time?

That's a pretty shady thing to do.

You think that defining "most used" by "usage" is shady?

If I spend 3 minutes taking a picture to post on Facebook via my iPhone Camera App's integration with Facebook, where does that weigh in?

> but Facebook

People listen to music for hours each day, even while working. They aren't using Facebook like that.

I also left Spotify streaming on my work computer when I left this evening. My average Spotify usage is probably 23 hours a day.

Your work computer's Spotify usage doesn't have anything to do with Pandora's claim about being the most used mobile app.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not. I think the connection that was being made is that, if you evaluate usage based purely on time, Pandora may have a ton of time in use. But, much (or at least some) of that time may be people who've left it to stream for hours after they've left.

Leaving your work computer on doing anything has nothing to do with the usage of a mobile app. He's not leaving his phone on playing music overnight at work.

Pandora isn't claiming to be the most used app in the world, they're claiming to be the most used mobile app in the world. People take their phones with them and for battery life alone are not likely to leave them playing music while they aren't listening to it.

I think Pandora stops if you leave the app playing for some hours without any interaction with the app. Most streaming services do that to save bandwidth.

Paid version wont do that.

This is needed for music playing in the background at restaurants for example.

> music playing in the background at restaurants

I'm pretty sure Spotify/Pandora's terms & conditions don't allow that:

https://help.pandora.com/customer/portal/articles/215200-pla...

https://www.spotify.com/us/legal/end-user-agreement/#s8

Good to know.

The terms may prohibit, but in my observations, I know of many restaurants and small businesses that do it anyway. I'm sure most ignorant of the policy, but how many would stop anyway if still known of it.

Yes it will, it just takes longer to timeout. And you cannot just play a normal Pandora subscription in a commercial setting.

Sure it does. We leave Pandora open on our phones during the workday almost all day and at least one of them in the evening at home.

Which makes you part of Pandora's claim that they're the most used mobile app. Leaving a desktop computer streaming music on at work has nothing to do with mobile app usage.

It illustrates that music apps are likely to be in use for very long periods/proportions of time. maccard's comment was quite relevant; it's not at all unreasonable to read in "and other people might use pandora similarly to the way I use spotify".

Phone app, not PC website.

I'm not sure why GP is getting downvoted for pointing this out.

It's obvious that music apps get used for a long period of time. That's why Pandora is one of the (if not the most like they claim) most used mobile apps in the world. Leaving Spotify on at work while you aren't there is not the reason why.

Trying to get indie artists paid, are we? Or just astroturfing your last.fm ranks? Both seem noble enough.

In addition to others suggesting by total time, I'd add that they are in a lot of embedded devices: cars, tvs, even receivers.

Though I don't think that would count towards "most-used mobile app". I think they mean phones.

Sounds like PR talk to me.

It was literally a post by the Director of Communications.

I would actually guess Spotify is even more popular. Pandora is AFAIR not even in Europe.

I used to know it since when it worked from Europe too... and I think I liked its selection more than I do with Spotify.

I think they mean by time spent using the app. Pandora is used a lot in the background.

I read that with an implied "most used mobile [music] app" but it is a genuinely confusing sentence.

What is the Apple app? Do they mean the app store app? The Apple Store App? I'm confused.

http://www.apple.com/music/

Which can't run on most mobile devices in the world... It would be shocking if any iOS only app was on the top of most used mobile apps.

I think he meant "Apple music app", as in iTunes.

Perhaps it's usage by time? i.e. Pandora left on in the background.

The launcher and lock screen do come to mind...

I also found that affirmation strange. Pandora isn't even global because of licensing issues.

They are pretty up there, but no, not the top, which is Facebook as you would expect.

http://qz.com/481245/these-are-the-25-most-popular-2015-mobi...

That's a list of most popular, not most used.

One cool thing Pandora might be able to do is analyze their stream data and predict where bands will have enough fans to make money on a live show. I could imagine TicketFly offering a service that essentially tells bands where to play, and of course steer them to a Ticketfly venue whenever possible.

This would be especially helpful for independent and "mid-market" type bands, provided the venues available in certain cities aren't already tied into a different ticketing ecosystem via contract.

Locally, I can choose from three (3) rather prominent avenues to buy from, but there's no overlap that I can tell between venues. As in, you can't get tickets to a LiveNation exclusive venue (large scale) and some smaller ones might have arrangements with other entities. I guess what I'm saying is I think you're right, but there are probably minefields of contracts in place.

Great as long as the algorithm isn't hiding a bunch.

I stopped using Pandora years ago when I interviewed with them and they ranted at me about how much they hate paying customers because they make more on advertising, which is when I started paying twice as much for Spotify.

Also, the people I know that use Pandora, and my experience of using Pandora literally since they were announced on Slashdot and were one of the first Flash apps, is that they do better 'radio' than other folks, but if you stick with a channel, it don't change much over years.

Yep. I use Pandora, because it's good at doing a "mood" for different kinds of gatherings. But the stations gather dust over time without modification.

Even better they can tell me when a band is playing locally. I listen to so many bands on Pandora, and I always seem to find out about smaller shows after they happen.

Pandora can significantly increase the attendance at these shows. That's much more important economically to most bands than the tiny royalty checks. It can be a real benefit to the music business.

Totally agree. Tremendous value.

If they can destroy Ticketmaster I'll be happy.

Edit: And StubHub for that matter.

I find it amazing that nobody can seem to outcompete Ticketmaster. It can't really take $15 per ticket to serve up 5 webpages. Are the costs of entry really that high? It doesn't seem like selling tickets should be that hard. How can a simple middleman maintain such a massive profit margin for so long?

They are actually Live Nation which before the merger was a spin off from Clear Channel. So they have all kinds of legacy venue usage rights and exclusive contracts. It's so incredibly blatantly anti-competitive and yet the merger was allowed: Google, Microsoft, Intel, piles of companies were against the merger.

So it's not amazing at all. And then it's perfect for many entertainers because they can use Ticketmaster as a scapegoat for such high ticket prices and exclusivity.

To give people what the 'exclusive venue' right look like. If a venue uses ticketmaster, and breaks the contract, they can't sign with another ticket vendor for one year. That pretty much locks everybody else out of the market. Or the venue is going to have one very quiet year.

That's exactly the kind of thing that anti monopoly legislation prevents. So, my guess is those terms are not enforceable unless they have a specific end date. Also, TM is probably fairly lean and kicks back a lot of there margin to any of the major players.

What if you sold those venues software that let them be their own vendor?

It wouldn't be anywhere as convenient as something like the online ticket vendors.

If a venue uses ticketmaster, and breaks the contract, they can't sign with another ticket vendor for one year.

Can't sign with another vendor per the contract they just broke?

Breaking in this sense being "does not renew" contract with Ticketmaster, the venue is not allowed to sign a contract with a new supplier for another year. They are not paying TicketMaster any longer, but they are open to a lawsuit if they sign with another vendor. It's like a one year non-compete.

> * How can a simple middleman maintain such a massive profit margin for so long?*

They merged with a large owner of venues (LiveNation), so they own the venues as well

You aren't the customer. The venues/teams/promoters are.

Yep. If you want to outcompete Ticketmaster you have to increase your revenue by jacking up the ticket prices even more (so your real customers get more money).

What if a startup worked with upcoming artists to book venues that aren't your typical music venues? The venue gets traffic it wouldn't have otherwise gotten, the artist keeps ticket prices lower (which promotes more exposure with their fans, and increases the profitability of touring).

Not a lot of venues that "aren't your typical music venues" have the kind of infrastructure (including but not limited to security procedures and PA) necessary for the kinds of bands LiveNation is signing.

^ This

A lot of the fees actually go directly to the venue, and not to Ticketmaster.

Ticketmaster interfaces with a large number of absorbed Ticketing services and inventory that they've acquired over the years. Sure selling tickets shouldn't be hard, but try doing it with the number of legacy systems ticketmaster has to work with... especially considering they have so many. Sure they could rewrite a single system, but they have plenty of teams and applications that interface with specific services that they'd not only have to rebuild the system, but make it compatible with the hundreds of stakeholder's applications (ranging from Sports, Theatre, concerts..).

Exclusive contracts? Owning the venues?

Yes. TM has exclusives with all of the venues you've heard of, so you'll at least have to break into those negotiations, which are for contracts lasting around 5 years.

The thing is, the venues get part of that fee. So they're not going to be interested in working with anybody who would get rid of that fee.

Between NextBigSound and this, Pandora's making some big moves. Wasn't sure if they'd become a dinosaur, but it'll be interesting how they tie all these capabilities together.

Pandora was founded in 2000. Amazing how long they have survived!

Woah, I didn't realize how much $$$ Pandora had!

Half of it is Pandora stock, according to http://press.pandora.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=251764&p=irol-newsA....

Last I heard they weren't even profitable yet.

Ars coverage of the story: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/pandor...

The photo they are using to illustrate this story, without any credit, is from the upcoming Guitar Hero Live (FreeStyleGames/Activision). No relationship with Pandora or TicketFly as far as I know.

The photo: http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Guitar...

Could anyone explain to me why they would do this instead of advertising/affiliate arrangements with all the ticket vendors out there?

One idea might be they were looking for complete ownership of the transactional data sets especially when paired with listening insights from that same consumer.

Seems odd that ticketmaster would not have have been willing to purchase them for more than that (unless of course ticketfly didn't want to go that route, and was leaving money on the table).

The founders sold their previous company to Ticketmaster. From http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/19/ticketmaster-rival-ticketfl...:

<<Ticketfly has an interesting origin story, the company’s co-founders sold their first startup, TicketWeb to industry leader Ticketmaster for $35 million in 2000 and then left that company in 2008 to form Ticketfly.>>

Maybe that relationship would've been seen as anti-competitive? As in, lots of scrutiny / regulatory hoops. Just a thought.

If anyone from Pandora is reading this:

* Form a partnership with Uber -- allow me to see venues with events happening on my uber map and allow me to click one button to buy a ride to the venue and a ticket at the same time!

* For the love of god -- please update the Pandora Home Screen on the website app when listening to music so that the album art and the artist title are BIG and viewable from across the room! Look at how lame this layout is: http://i.imgur.com/QEciRIj.jpg

Look at how small the album art/artist is and ALL that wasted screen real estate.... I mean the album art is the smallest visual element in that entire UI!!!

My usability gripe:

If the album that Pandora has tagged a song as belonging to isn't available digitally on Amazon, but the same song is digitally available on another album, link to that. Don't imply that itunes is the only way to get it without ordering a CD.

http://ridetheclown.com/wp/saver2/

I use a bookmarklet to put that stuff in the title (and click the are you still listening button) you could do the same to fix the layout how you like it.

link to said bookmarklet?

just something I wrote in a few minutes...

javascript:setInterval(function (){document.title = $('.songTitle').text() + ' -- ' + $('.artistSummary').first().text();if($('#still_listening_ignore').length == 1){var t = 1000 + (Math.random()*500); setTimeout(function(){if($('#still_listening_ignore').length == 1)$('#still_listening_ignore').click();},t)}},1000);

I don't think Uber does any integration like that. Creating a map inside Ticketfly would be easier and it could include an Uber ride at checkout.

check out rdio.com, they are crushing pandora in their app design imo

hopefully now this means I won't keep hearing the same songs over and over on pandora... oh wait, already cancelled my membership

edit: the truth hurts. I used and paid for pandora one for many years but the fact is they play the same songs over and over regardless of what station I'm on. switched to slacker radio, then rdio more recently and found it to be much better. best of luck to pandora though.

Wow, so you're noticing that Pandora, an internet radio mechanism, has some similar habits to terrestrial radio. Yes, there are repeats. There are buttons for you to interact with the software that can change what you hear, but if you just RONCO set it and forget it, you're going to get the same experience as with terrestrial radio.

Thanks for your contribution.

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