Exactly this ... outside of ThinkPad, many Windows hardware options have been pretty embarrassing.
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/?menu-id=laptops
Which ThinkPad are you talking about? ThinkPad X, ThinkPad T, ThinkPad W, ThinkPad Yoga, ThinkPad E, ThinkPad L, or ThinkPad Helix, or ThinkPad 11E?
Let's say we're talking about ThinkPad T.. Which model?
T440p, T450, T450s, T540p, or T550?
And ThinkPad is just one line of Lenovo's products, they also have: Y Series, Z Series, Yoga Series, 500 Series, Flex, Edge, U Series, Lavie, B Series, 100 Series, S Series, G Series, and finally Chromebook.
As a consumer, I have a hard enough time deciding between Surface Pro 4 or Surface Book... or Macbook Air vs Macbook vs Macbook Pro. When presented with so many options from one company I simply close the webpage. After all, how can they possibly make the product as good as MS's offering if they have so many models?
Take for example me, compsci student. I wanted to have a sub-600€ laptop with good hardware and good battery life, but did not care much about display. I ordered a thinkpad, replaced the HDD with an SSD, and am now happy with it.
The trick is called customization: Being better because they can deliver exactly what you need.
I took SSD, 16gb ram, no DVD, 2 cores (quad core was very expensive) and 2 batteries which makes it very light, yet with proper screen size; very fast and the battery lifetime is amazing (10-20h)
Only thing I don't like is touchpad, but I usually disable it and use track point. I preferred touchpad in my old asus laptop which was lower than keyboard level hence one would rarely click it by accident.
I chose T450 over T440 since in ..50 series Lenovo readded physical buttons over the touchpad (in ..30 and ..40 they were replaced with touch zones on the touchpad and long time Thinkpad users were really furious about that on forums)
IMO Touchpads/clickpads on those are a deal breaker. They are so bad that it is almost impossible to be nearly as productive as with a mouse.
On the other hand, Apple really got the clickpad right.
I customized to very low sensitivity and I use only for clicking these days as trackpoint is just much better an interface.
Anyone that doesn't like the trackpoint can buy a MacBook clone instead.
It is a software problem that for pragmatic reasons I don't want to get into. Good luck setting non-integer scaling on current operating systems (like 1.25 or 1.50). It's either not supported, or the effect is blurry. It's a different story for retina screens, you set scaling to 2.00 and you're fine. But I was talking about non-retina.
> T440p, T450, T450s, T540p, or T550?
T450s.
When looking for a competitor to Apple, go for the T-series, but also take a look at the X-series.
T5XX has 15" screen and numpad in the keyboard, so unless you like numpad, forget those. 440 is the older series, before it there was 430 series, and presently 450 is the current line.
"p" stands for "performance", basically it's a laptop with an NVIDIA GeForce graphics card, if you are heavily into gaming or video production. It makes the laptop thicker, heavier and consume more power. Usually you forget the "p" option. Also Apple makes do with just the integrated Intel graphics, so we don't need NDIVIA either.
"s" is maybe for "slim". T4XXs is the flagship, and the plain T4XX is an economy version. The T4XXs is, in my opinion, the best competitor for Apple laptops.
Sure. Joe Average has no clue about that though. Most of the main vendors suffer from the same proliferation of models. Look at Dell:
Latitude - For Business
Vostro - for Small Business (WTF? Why is this a different model from Latitude?)
Inspiron - For Home and Home Office (Seriously? Why isn't this satisfied by either of the other two models?)
Precision Workstations - For professional creators (that seems like a reasonable distinction, but then looking at the specs it's not really, it's just a slightly higher spec than other models)
XPS - For the Ultimate experience (Okay.. but what about Precision Workstation then? Why on earth does something called the Ultimate have worse spec than some of the other not-ultimate models?)
HTTP, HTML and Javascript?
No they don't… the 15" MBP has a dedicated GPU, and a good one at that.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R9-M370X.142763.0.ht... The AMD Radeon R9 M370X is a mid-range graphics card for laptops that was announced mid 2015.
Mac are awesome for work (mine at least) but useless for anything that requires a good gpu
The backlit 'chicklet' keyboard on the Yoga Whatever(tm) is also subjectively better than the barrage of nipples and buttons that come with those 'legendary' Thinkpad keyboards. The screen is of a magnitude more vibrant and you can run two disks - mSATA SSD + normal SATA SSD/spinny-disk. Plus touch is just a feature, not something that is a special requirement. The hinge seems better engineered too, even if it never gets used in 360 tablet mode.
There is proof of pudding in that my colleagues with 14" Thinkpads have those stands and external monitors, with external keyboards and mice, rarely with the machines being 'un-docked' or taken home. Meanwhile, my off-brand Yoga Whatever(tm) gets carried around as intended, used on trains and used at home.
Sure some of the shiny has worn off the fibreglass in the palm-rest area but I actually do not care, I don't like the feel of Apple-style aluminium, plastic is more me when it comes to what I want to rest my palms on. The build quality is absolutely fine on Yoga Whatever(tm), same power connector as Thinkpad with same USB3 connector.
I downgraded from Windows Whatever to Ubuntu and admittedly the wifi does need 'make install' every time the kernel changes, but it runs a full set of dev tools fine (my colleagues desk-bound machines run 'Outlook', a web browser and nothing else, maybe 'Excel').
I prefer a standard linux distro as the Apple dev environments don't have the repository 'apt-get install' thing done very well. Horses for courses but there are surprises in the consumer range that are better for getting work done and a worthy contender for Apple competitor. Actually I would be annoyed if company policy forced me to have either a proper Thinkpad or a proper Apple computer, the Yoga Whatever(tm) with 14" deep-colour proper-HD screen hits the sweet spot for me.
I spent over an hour narrowing down the list of laptops (with names that told me nothing) to the few that met her price / performance budget. After that experience, I can totally understand how Apple does so well. Most consumers want LESS choice, not more.
It's totally reasonable to make the choice that a lowest common denominator set of features is acceptable if it means you don't have to deal with the pain of choices, but you don't magically get something better as well. I do this for all kinds of things where the extra effort to get "the best" isn't worth the mental cost, but I make that choice mindfully. I only vaguely remember the annoyance of having to pick from the myriad of Thinkpad choices years ago.
For example, Apple makes great stuff but isn't designing things for my needs in a work laptop at all. I place no value on appearance since it's just a tool to me, I'm in a very keyboard-centric software environment so a trackpoint keyboard is the best mouse for me on this machine. I need various ports to plug things into more than I need clean lines. I need features and battery life more than I need portability. And while I try to discount status concerns here as much as I can, if I'm honest the people it's most useful for me to impress with my work laptop are more impressed by novelty/customization (arch linux + tiling wm + vim-keybindings everywhere setup) than with Apple product beauty anyway. When people refer to a laptop being "ugly" it strikes me as about as meaningful an opinion as if someone told me my cordless drill or vacuum was ugly.
Now that I mention it, that's the reason I find the current designer culture (intuitive design is the be-all and end-all of design) to be fairly anti-creator. The people who create things with technology, who craft code or video or sound or images in order to build valuable things do better with tools that allow for expertise. They benefit from the payoffs that investments in mastering expert interfaces bring with them. They want the option to climb a learning curve if it's the only way to reach the heights. I find calls for the systematic removal of this option to be troubling, especially when they are aimed at young people.
So, as a consumer, value being given limited choices when it makes sense for you but please don't lobby for it to be more universal!
Apple's got about fourteen separate computers they'll sell you (plus tablets/phones), but that's folded away behind six distinct products that come in two or three stock configurations. If you had to choose between those fourteen things up front it'd be a lot more conceptually complicated.
Some options really are unnecessary. Like "Do you want to spend $15 to upgrade the network card to the 3x3 model? (no, we can't tell you if you need that or not or even what it means, you gotta know that yourself)".
Makes the design step more difficult (because you shouldn't have crazy intransparent dependencies between upgrades), but is more user friendly. Give 2 or 3 preset options for users that don't want to fiddle.
This is something a dealer might be able to implement on top of the existing offerings, but I haven't seen it yet. Screenfulls of base models, then another page of dropdowns. No way to tell what specific options each of the base models offers (or doesn't offer).
* Mazda6L (Our most green Mazda 6)
* Mazda6 Yoga (Our Mazda 6 that transforms into a Miata)
* Mazda6W (Our power version)
* Mazda6T (Our version which includes more gizmos)
* Mazda6X (Our version which includes even more gizmos)
* Mazda6 Helix (Our version that's like our Yoga but different)
* Mazda611E (Our rugged version for teenagers who are careless)
.. and then allowing you to further customize each Mazda6 model down to the finest detail.
...and then repeat for each type of car in their lineup (Mazda3, Miata, SUVs, etc).
Yes, if this were the case then I would have a very hard time buying a car! :)
Whereas take BMW, which seems to have a really simple product line but has endless subtle variations in the same segment. 5 series Sedan vs 4 Gran Coupé vs 3 Grand Turismo, anyone? Then try to comprehend the endless options for each model. Then try to comprehend the relative cost of one model versus another (or one trim versus another) factoring in the inclusion or exclusion of particular features. It's insane.
* Mazda 6 SE Saloon
* Mazda 6 SE-L Saloon
* Mazda 6 Sport Saloon
* Mazda 6 SE Tourer
* ...
... and then within each trim level, with or without nav
... and then within each, auto or manual transmission
... and then within each, petrol or diesel engines (sometimes several power levels)
... and then of course colours, paints and fabrics and alloy wheels and all that cosmetic stuff.
Admit it, there's more different option in a car configurator even at Mazda than in a laptop manufacturer's line-up.
But I think your example is way off. You're showing Trim Levels which are equivalent to prepackaged options list like CPU, memory, Red type cover vs Blue type cover, black stylus vs silver stylus. It's still the same model (Mazda6), still the same chassis, same body, same car! And cars are far more complicated than laptops! Buying a car in the USA for 99% of the general public basically comes down to choosing the Model (Mazda6), choosing the trim level (Grand Touring), choosing the color, and then settling for whatever your nearest dealers have on the lot :)
In comparison, the ThinkPad T models have different chassis, different physical sizes, different weight before you even start customizing things like CPU, memory, batteries, etc. And remember we're only talking about the T series.
As a long-time Thinkpad owner, there are really only two answers for most tech-savvy users with typical needs (media, browsing, travel, and maybe programming): The X series and the T4XXs models.
Lenovo needs to fail hard and fast. I recognize we'll probably never get those responsible into prison, but at least we can make sure they never work again.
If you wouldn't buy or recommend a Volkswagen after dieselgate, you certainly shouldn't buy or recommend a Lenovo product after Superfish.
Imagine if you bought a car that detected when you were driving to a particular business, locked out steering, and instead drove you to a competitor that had "partnered" with the manufacturer. You totally own the car, and no one ever told you it had this "feature."
Imagine if you bought a gun that would refuse to fire when pointed at people who had purchased protection from the manufacturer. You don't find out about this feature until the guy invading your home has it.
Lenovo lied to your face. It sold laptops that claimed to navigate to the websites you entered in the URL bar, but instead displayed a version edited by Lenovo on behalf of its partners.
Normalizing this sort of thing is not okay and anyone buying Lenovo post-Superfish shares the moral responsibility when this is our future.
A more apt analogy might be Amazon silently editing books to include product placement for corporate sponsors.
You even tried to fabricate examples where the surprise factor of the product not working as expected at a key moment was the bulk of the problem. As if that's somehow not the biggest flaw of a touchpad.
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo...
In any case, Lenovo isn’t the only manufacturer that includes a pointing stick in their laptops. HP’s EliteBook series, for example, has one. There’s a full list of manufacturers here².
――――――
¹ — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039306
² — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick#Naming_and_bran...
I know that elitebooks, latitudes, etc used to have these too. None of them do anymore.
Many Windows OEMs maintain their cheaper-than-Apple status by optimizing the things people compare (gigahertz, RAM capacity, HDD capacity) and putting in the cheapest shit possible on the rest (pixel density, keyboards, cases, hinges, and especially trackpads).
It was only a subset of their customers, and none of the ThinkPad models.
One way to look at it is that a laptop is made up of a bunch of parts, sometimes those parts come in subassemblies, and every time someone touches a part, a small bit of margin is taken out to pay for that touch. This is the reason that vertically integrated (from chips to finished product) has a higher profit margin, it collects all of those bits into one chunk.
For a long time the windows Laptop market has been all sub-assemblies coming together at the last stage. Not much margin left for the laptop "maker" after they pay for the folks who built the motherboard, the folks who build the disk drive, Intel for making the CPU, Hynix or Samsung for making the memory modules, Sharp or Toshiba for making the display, and then pony up still more cash to Microsoft for an OS.
Apple's advantage is that they tightly control the supply line, using their own OS, and by not licensing their software elsewhere can charge a premium price for additional margin.
By going into competition with their partners, Microsoft took the the only path possible to compete with Apple, be vertical. Interesting to see what that means long term.
So the only thing MS can save is OEM margin, and it's supposed to be razor thin(maybe 10%) .
Is this such a big deal ?
Cons:
- It's a bit pricey
- Gamery branding
- Not a lot of ports
They just launched their Surface Pro competitor in the US: http://us.vaio.com/
(Typing this on the final version of the Sony Vaio Z, eagerly looking for a Skylake based successor...)
The above mentioned "premium fatal flaw" in this case is the terrible internal wifi, but a micro-usb wifi has corrected that. I also fixed IMO the glossy display with a screen protector. Other than those two issues, I really like it.
When it's finally time to replace it I'll be looking at Microsoft or Dell. Maybe even Apple or ASUS. Probably not Lenovo, because they seem to be trying to destroy the Thinkpad brand. If I had to buy a computer right now without further research it would be the Dell XPS 13.
Have you tried the internal Wifi with a newer Linux distribution? I'm using Ubuntu 15.04 and it works great :) No disconnects, speed good be better though ...
Regarding a replacement: What do you think about the Librem 13? It's one of my favorites along with the Dell XPS 13 and the Lenovo X1 Carbon.
Related: This screen protector makes the glossy display usable outside: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HDTVJKQ
I'm really happy to see the Librem 13 nearing existence, but it's not ideal for me: i5 only, no back-lit keyboard. Up to 16GB and the matte screen is awesome though. The X1 Carbon 1st/3rd Gens are great, but Lenovo is being so bad recently.
That said, it seems like the next laptop I'm getting just might be this Surface Book, or the next iteration of it.
I truly fail to understand this - the best laptop is not sold in stores, and takes over two weeks online. The other Lenovos are, but not that one.
I hope MS is better with this, but I don't have experience yet.
but i guess everyone in SF just use macbooks on their desks at all times.
And then I drop it from a table onto a cement floor and the body cracks and the lid won't close anymore. So why do I put up with a laptop that's 50% heavier than a Macbook yet still breaks when I drop it from a table?
Or maybe Thinkpads are supposed to be used on desks at all times.
I wouldn't worry too much about that, backpacks are standard issue for big 5 consultants
It sounds like you are basing your opinion off of an old system or a current model that isn't even in the same class as a Macbook.
My company is switching everyone from Thinkpads to Macbooks, and this is a company that was built on Thinkpads. That's how awful modern Thinkpads are compared to basically anything else.
I travel a lot, sometimes for work, sometimes for leisure, so when I chose my personal computer I went with a Thinkpad X230. Fast enough to compile C++ code for my game programming hobby, fast enough to do my excel stuff for work, and the integrated graphics card can drive two external 1920x1200 screens comfortably. Just don't expect to play any graphically intensive games. With the help of a spare battery I kept around I could get 12-14 hours out of it if, for example, I were flying to Asia.
My point being, perhaps your experience had more to do with being given a computer that definitely did not fit your work/life style? Though I'd agree with you that the W520 was not well designed.
My last job, I had a Thinkpad T520, which was just as thick but a bit lighter and smaller footprint. At home I have a T420, again same thickness but slightly smaller footprint yet. I'm no stranger to Thinkpads. I hope I don't ever have to use another.
Even IBM is disillusioned by the Thinkpads. They created the damn thing and they're abandoning it for Macbooks: http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/5/9099451/ibm-apple-enterpris...
I only continued to buy Thinkpads because I knew how to remove all of the Lenovo crapware the moment I got the computer. Especially with the latest privacy issues, Thinkpads are no longer the computers you buy when you just want a solid computer without frills.
The W series and the T520's though... they were always too big to be real laptops and too wimpy to match desktops. It's an awkward place to be.
Except for the crapware they've embedded in the firmware. That isn't as easy to get rid of.
>That's how awful modern Thinkpads are compared to basically anything else.
Your company choosing to buy Macbooks over Thinkpads is a sign that Thinkpads are worse than every other brand of laptop in existence? Its pretty obvious that you aren't interested in a logical conversation.
What do you think I meant by "my company was built on Thinkpads"?
I wonder what the heat scenario will be like with the Surface Book. If it turns hot like a MacBook, that'll set yet another disappointing precedent.
Finally though, it's nice to see MS doing what people have been asking for years.