Comment by nl | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nl | Hacker News Reader

This is something I know a little about. I used to run a moderately popular website cataloging unbranded Chinese framesets, and builds using them.

This article rides that line between expressing genuine problems and trying to scare people.

Yes, there are plenty of fake frames around. Yes, I'm sure some EBay carbon handlebars are unsafe.

But at the same time there are lots (more?) Chinese frames around that aren't "fake", but are just less costly. For example, there is the Hong-Fu FM-066/069, which is kind of a cross between a Cervelo R5 and a Cannondale SuperSix, except around ~$500. It's light (around ~800 grams) and has a good reputation for quality.

Interestingly, one of the big selling points is that they are quicker to market with features than the major brands. Until last year if you wanted a Cervelo R3/R5 with Di2 cable routing you had to drill holes in the frame yourself. The FM-66 could be ordered like that, or with conventional cables, and with your choice of bottom bracket (instead of the annoying BBRight thing Cervelo uses). Same with disc brakes: the FM-069 is a road disc bike, out two years before Cervelo or Cannondale managed it.

Yeah, I think this is a good example of consumer versus hacker mindset. Much of the attraction of Chinese frames is that, at least in Europe, frames can cost as much as an assembled bike. So these cheap frames enable people to build bikes from parts without it being horribly expensive. As far as I know some frames are copied, but generally doesn't have copyright protection anyway (somewhat depending on country).

"When it says 'email for color/graphics', it likely means the seller has omitted those details to evade brand security"

Or, like you point out, it actually means you get a choice.

What's the link to your site?

You bring up good points, and obviously the article is on Specialized's side.

But I absolutely would not trust a fake/knockoff carbon fiber frame or any knockoff helmet. My safety's just too important, and it's too difficult to detect impending failures in carbon fiber products, nor the lack of engineering in a safety product like a helmet. I ride bicycles and motorcycles and race cars. There's definitely a price/quality curve, but when safety is in question, I'd like to have a throat to choke. It's not about actually suing, it's about knowing someone reputable, with a legal presence in this country, stands behind the product.

I probably wouldn't have similar qualms about buying an off-brand or knockoff metal frameset, or a watch or something. I wouldn't have commented, but it pains me to see this (and followups asking where to buy) as the top-ranked comment.

at some stage all of the implicit knowledge is or will be actually sitting over in taiwan/china. many high end frames are performing in similar peformance buckets, despite the stickers on them. And the number of facilities is much smaller than the number of brands.

This is like generic drugs at some stage, all the US prices are high subsidizing low cost elsewehere. grey market importation is basically a sensible solution. the incumbents will rely on brand name and safety scare tactics to limit the arbitrage. but its probably worth seeing thru this.

carbon reinforce plastic is ultimately just fancy plastic. there is also no need for an 800g frameset, most punters are better served by 1100g of more durable and longer-lasting design. That is, those people buying retail. If your stuff is free or grey market or pro-deal its another story...amortization of capital expense is entirely diffent math in that case.

"carbon reinforce plastic is ultimately just fancy plastic"

NO, it isn't.

That is a very erroneous and dangerous assumption.

Carbon Fiber Composite is an Engineered Material, which is very different from ordinary plastics or metals, in just about every important way.

Please see my comment above and do some research, but do not spread this false concept.

A (trivially) true but empty statement without a appropriate context for relevance.

Sorry you missed the context. Per the comment, please read my other post which provides a good primer on high level detail and perhaps do some research on Engineered Materials vs Monolithic Materials.

I'll also provide a bit more detail here: Monolithic materials, such as ordinary metals or plastics are substantially the same in all directions. You can work with them by getting the basic info on their properties, and then design and cut them from any direction. Other than edge cases pushing the limits where you have to watch for grain effects in some metals, you can cut it and shape it any way you like.

In contrast, for engineered materials, at the most basic level, their properties are HIGHLY directional. The cool thing about this is that it means that we can put the strength exactly where it is needed, and omit the strength (and weight) where it is not needed.

BUT, this means that these materials MUST be engineered. The designer MUST understand the details of the loads and load paths, and design the material to handle it. The fabricator MUST follow those designs exactly in hundreds of parameters. Otherwise, the part will fail.

On the good side, it is not unusual for us to beat the performance of aluminum by 40-50%.

On the bad side, it would not be hard to make a carbon part that appears massively overbuilt, heavier and thicker than steel, yet would fail catastrophically.

(note that this is just the most basic level, and overlooks issues of the many types and grades of carbon or the hundreds of types of epoxy, chemistries, cure rates, bonding, inserts, etc., and their appropriate application.)

Carbon Fiber is most definitely NOT "just fancy plastic" or 'black aluminum', and that assumption is wrong and can be very dangerous.

(ironically, I agree with many of your other points, but that assumption really needs to be put to rest)

I have no problem with an honestly branded cheap frame. A counterfeit is completely different.

Where is the best Chinese retailer to buy bikes from?

Ebay so you get some buyer protection. Direct if you are comfortable.

I don't follow the scene much anymore. For specific recommendations, spend some time reading the (many) forum threads in http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/

Reply on news.ycombinator.com