If most of us won't escape wage slavery, how is humanity still a good idea?
a question inspired by http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1029998 , which didn't attract much attention.
"Humanity" is at least an interesting idea because, compared to other animals, we get to contemplate these various possibilities and, if we choose to, to work towards them.
Why do we continue bringing life into this world when the vast majority face such a bleak existence? I don't see how being able to contemplate this fate redeems anything.
I think (personally, unscientifically, just guessing) that techno-topia is probably for a generation or 3 out from here (if we're lucky) -- but that there's plenty of good for us 'twixt here and there. Unsolicited advice: Don't let go of your bitter perspective or feel pressured to deem it false - it ain't, exactly, false. But, don't jump to conclusions either. Don't worry about "redemption", hour to hour. Don't conclude "bleak". Don't (again) make questionable assumptions about "realistic". Hang in there. Really. Go out for a 2 mile brisk walk. Do you drink? Get a beer at a nearby pub (walking to and fro). Shake your head vigorously. Feel the sunshine or the rain or snow and seek out what is nice in them. Get back into your body. This whole concept of "humanity" such as you are thinking about it is some crazy invention, but a few centuries old. Put this whole "what is the point of humanity" thing aside for a bit, go out and seek some gentle personal pleasure, and then come back.
Suck it up and take care of yrself by caring beyond yrself.
-t
completely irrelevant. if you did not exist, you would not miss it. there is nothing to be said against not existing, while there are many things to be said against existing.
"think about all the good stuff that must have kept your ancestors going"
mostly fear and stupidity, ingrained by millions of years of mindless evolution, kept our ancestors going. and trivially, only people whose ancestors did "keep going" will be around today to have this conversation.
hmm, having said that, i still think it's nice of you to respond at all. i could just go along with what you (and everyone else) is saying. unfortunately i don't think it makes sense.
> completely irrelevant.
Not so. While you are alive time is passing and you are seeing and hearing. You may as well focus on seeing and hearing things that are pleasing as it will make the time more pleasant.
> if you did not exist, you would not miss it.
I agree completely.
> there is nothing to be said against not existing
While not existing is not terribly bad, it does rather limit your options. You can't do anything fun anymore. You can't have another go. You've cut off your nose to spite your face.
> while there are many things to be said against existing.
Yes, but why are you focusing on those things?
> I would sign up for "post industrial techno-topia"
I would too, ohh, a few months maybe a year or two ago. It wasn't until I was idling and reading somewhere here that I really began to grasp the question: Then what?
There's no happy ever after like in a film, where they get married and it fades to the credits, or they get hired or promoted or win some money, or save the day, then the credits roll. IRL the next thing that happens is you look around and go "now what?". Even if you win enough to retire you still have a lifetime which is going to pass and you have to find something to do every day. It isn't just escape wage slavery, win the game, the end. There isn't a game, or an end.
Ever seen the black comedy Death Becomes Her? They are trying to get a guy to take the immortality potion, and, well I'll quote from IMDB:
"""Lisle Von Rhuman: Go on... Drink it... It is the completion of your life's work. You gave other people youth and wasted your own! Drink. And you will be able to work again forever! Drink... drink, Dr. Menville. You owe yourself another chance! Drink! It's the right choice! The only choice! Drink! SEMPRE VIVE! LIVE FOREVER! Ernest Menville: Then what? Lisle Von Rhuman: What? Ernest Menville: Then what happens? Lisle Von Rhuman: What?"""
Well it's a good question. But really, you may as well say "Sleep! Wake up tomorrow!", "Then what?".
I don't know if there is 'an answer', but you could consider the Buddhist style views (I liked Awareness by Anthony De Mello, Buddhism Plain and Simple by Steve Hagen and The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. You might say they're a bit new agey or self helpey, but you're contemplating death so it's not like you've got a lot to fear from reading something different, eh?). Anyway, that leads to a kind of 'why do you want to escape? Nobody in the cosmic sense expects anything of you. Let your family and friends have their expectations and be their problem. Only concentrate on what you do, live your life, stop desiring everything to be different' kind of view.
And/or you could ask yourself about people who are often or always happy. It's seems quite well established that exercise, a simpler diet with fewer processed foods, regular sunshine and a regular sleep cycle improve moods. You are human not just a floating intelligence, you have a body and maybe your unhappiness is a product of something out of balance and not something inherent in the universe? Maybe you'd see the same lack of purpose and ultimate ending in a different light, as more of a release? Why not do something daring that you want to? In 100 years who is going to care?
Also, check out
http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/
"If it seems to you like nothing you do makes you happy, and you can't even imagine what would make you happy, it's not because the universe is made of particle fields. It's because you're still solving the wrong problem. Keep searching, until you find the visualizable state of affairs in which the existential angst seems like it should go away - that might (or might not) tell you the real problem;"
> but the point is precisely that there are no realistic alternatives.
There aren't anyway. What are you going to do if you are immortal and free from debt and wage slavery? You have forever to fill and you are stuck in the universe. You can't escape out of it, there is nowhere out of it to escape to anyway. You can't escape past it when it ends, because it might end without time or in heat death or with a big crunch, and even if you could escape what would you do there? Trapped trapped trapped, it's just ... well, that's life! :D :( sigh.
> Why do we continue bringing life into this world
Biological drives, I guess. But why does it bother you if other people have hope where you don't? If we die out this generation, human life cannot improve. If we don't, maybe it can. Assuming you think removal of all pain and suffering is an improvement - what would we be like if stuck with happiness turned up to 11 all the time and no other reference points?
> when the vast majority face such a bleak existence?
shrug. What was that you were dismissing about the little things that happen everyday?
> I don't see how being able to contemplate this fate redeems anything.
What are you wanting some universal overlord to give your life meaning for? If your existence is the product of evolution, natural selection, the world is not giving you shit that needs to be redeemed before it can be good, the world is just what it is and you are interpreting it as bad and also refusing to let it be good. Stop.
> how is humanity still a good idea?
Who said it was ever a good idea? It just happened. Why do you care if it stops? What would you replace it with anyway?