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Comment by cryoshon | Hacker News Reader

And yet here in the US where there is similar, the NSA is viewed as a refuge for the "best and brightest" and "most patriotic". People nod approvingly when they learn someone works at the NSA, even in light of the disclosures.

Who has the courage to shame these people to their face for collaborating in our oppression? It's easy to wax poetic and spit fire on the internet, but it's much harder to actually shun someone standing in front of you.

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Really? In my circles, anyone working for Palantir (much less the NSA itself) is considered disgusting.

I'd imagine many working on this won't tell you their real job. For example when you apply for MI5 stuff in the UK you cannot tell people your actual job.

God knows how many there are doing these jobs.

It helps that British geeks love James Bond and Alan Turing, and at GCHQ they get to play at being both - although you'd have to hope some of them have wondered if this time round they might not be the unequivocal good guys.

Also, if you get a reputation for hiring the brightest and best, you also get people who've spent so long being told they're the brightest and best that they may have little concern for whatever lesser beings get spied on, shamed, discredited, disenfranchised during their fun intellectual challenges.

Right, I'm on a list somewhere now! Hi echelon.

GCHQ have a brainwashing program that is designed to keep their staff in line with the status quo. If you so much as step into an interview, you have joined their cult.

And it IS a cult, make no doubt about it!

Aren't they more like glorified filing clerks?

I don't personally know anyone who respects the NSA like you described.

I think that really depends on your circles. I can't think of anyone I know who trusts the NSA or looks at an employee of the NSA as a role model by default.

I speak only for myself, but I recently met someone who works for the NSA, and I told him off like I've never told anyone off before. It was my goal to do my best to break him as a person as much as I can with words.

People who work for these agencies deserve no quarter, and they serve no useful place in a free and open society. I don't view myself as a 'mean' person, and I probably wasn't particularly effective when abusing this guy, but I like to think it's the thought that counts.

> It was my goal to do my best to break him as a person as much as I can with words.

Really? Wow. I am concerned at the lack of human decency, the unwillingness to at least conduct a civil dialogue about his point of view. "Breaking" a person is really quite manipulative, harsh, and implies their existing person and personality are 'wrong', and I am concerned that is even considered as a valid action. Even the devil deserves his fair day in court.

> fair day in court.

FISA? In my dealings with sociopaths, or merely the deluded, nothing sets the record straight like a public calling out on their bullshit.

The softly softly approach with these enablers doesn't work quick enough, unless you meet them regularly. You want the experience to stick.

Wow. With that approach, I fear that a lot of innocents will be hurt on your path to 'justice'. Whatever happened to 'It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer'?

Doesn't it really depend on what the ten were guilty of?

Jaywalking, sure. Homicide, not so much.

Punishing murderers doesn't actually solve any problems unless you suspect them of continuing to do it. And punishing innocent people creates massive problems.

An individual is not a court, and the courts are not holding the people responsible well, responsible.

I don't understand why someone would choose to say that the NSA or their workers are innocent, as we have mountains of evidence to their obvious malfeasance.

There is 0 path to justice in holding our government accountable, so welcome to the impotent rage of the masses.

They changed it to "It is better that an entire country lose its right to privacy and security than... well, anything. Seriously, this shit is awesome, look at what my stupid neighbors are talking about on the phone"

A tongue lashing and a lashing are different. Is your day in court actual or metaphorical? Pick one instead of playing word games.

You are mistaken if you think people should only be taken to task within a court hearing.

In any case these guys are never going to court.

Why are you conflating a traditional principle of jurisprudence with the right to free speech? These are entirely separate topics.

The point was to publicly challenge the people that work for the surveillance-industrial-complex. That is simply free speech. The other party has the right to yell back if the desire, or to simply leave[1]l.

    All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

I fear that a lot of innocents will be hurt because of your support that you give by choosing to let these problems pass without challenge. Why should you expect anything to change when you withhold the necessary feedback necessary to correct bad behavior?

There is a difference between crude or vulgar name-calling/insults and challenging someone with language that is frank, strong, and maybe a bit rude. One is just trying to make people angry and the other is seeking to throw a bucket of cold water onto someone's naive or harmful point of view.[2]

[1] Free speech doesn't guarantee you an audience.

[2] Failure to understand this distinction is why some people perceive Linus Torvalds as being rude and "foul mouthed".

Anyone who promotes the idea that total surveillance over the entire population as a valid means of keeping order deserves not one iota of human decency - for they provide none at all to their fellows.

That you think so is very concerning, everyone deserves human decency. Your views sounds dangerously close to zealotry, the same sort of views that have harmed so many in the past...

It is the surveillance zealots you should be worried about, not those who would disallow the conditions necessary for them to continue to deprive us all of our rights.

Total Surveillance is a Crime Against Humanity.

Well if the threat is actually that severe maybe you shouldn't rule out physical violence? And who will enforce this oppression, the cops so we should hate them. And who will finance this future crime, the banks so we should hate anyone that works there, even the tellers. Embrace or deflect, no good comes from hate.

I don't support physical violence. But I do support shunning those who support the creation of the Total Surveillance State.

Why should he have a civil dialogue with someone who's working 40 hours a week to exfiltrate his personal private communications without cause? Do you sit car thieves down and explain how not having transportation for a month really hurt your feelings?

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