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Comment by davorb | Hacker News Reader

> Taler ensures that governments can easily track their citizen's income

So exactly why would I want to use this?

Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it, and without taxes modern society cannot function at all.

Technologies like this would be a boon to many developing countries like mine where tax evasion and corruption is rampant. It would enable the government to collect funds for infrastructure, education, environmental protection and healthcare (and yes, I am a progressive liberal who would rather have the government provide these at subsidized cost rather than private entities; even at the cost of "efficiency" if need be).

If a government is already having trouble collecting funds it is owed, this currency will not help it. The government would just be faced with two problems instead of one.

The question remains, why would anyone choose to use a system like this? Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government.

That is already true, and with the means of transfers available (cash, gold, banking system, etc...) public institutions still give the public some confidence in that they manage to tax everyone, and pursue those who evade.

If a currency system was available that made taxation appear entirely optional to the public the trust in the tax system would erode in a hurry (Why should I pay when my neighbor or Acme inc. isn't paying?). Tax morale is alreay too low in many countries. Making more loopholes available would just not be good.

Simple: this aims for regulatory support. If Taler (or a system like Taler) is embraced by governments, and is therefore given the full support of the financial system, Bitcoin could be permanently relegated to black-market-only use.

Why would we want bitcoin to be relegated to a black market only use?

Bitcoin is more valid money then paper currency. we can directly verify the creation of the transaction.

> Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government.

Many may think or assert that, especially based on the trendy anti-government dogma, but I disagree. They have a vested interest in a fair and enforced taxation system. Otherwise they lose effective government and its services, both of which are absolutely essential to their safety and prosperity.

I don't see why is "fair" required; tax money works just as well if the system is unfair.

Probably the goal is that you're coerced to use it, as with every other government service.

You're not coerced into using many government services.

You may be taxed to pay for them, but you don't have to use them all.

Great. Where do I click to opt out of the IRS personal data storage system?

http://www.australia.gov.au/information-and-services/immigra...

A more authortarian gov as a solution to non-optional 'services'?

No, I was suggesting that if you don;t like the country you're in right now you can choose another.

The IRS, or their equivalent, are the price of entry into whatever society you wish to be part of (or whichever will take you.

It's like a social club, if you don't want to pay your dues you don't get to use the facilities.

It's a standard cop-out. "'Merica; leave if you don't like it". Imagine if activists in the 60's had taken that advice.

You realize the IRS != US? We got along financially just fine (some would say better) before it.

I'm not American, thanks, so no its not a standard opt-out.

You have a choice of many countries in the world, with all sorts of different rules decided on by the people there.

I guess I'm trying to make a broader point than the IRS here - argue against the IRS and whatever other parts of government you like on a pragmatic basis, that's great.

I just get riled up by the "It's wrong! They have no right to tax me! I have property rights!" stance, because it's inconsistent.

Is it possible for a people to decide to make taxation voluntary? If for example country Q's owners (it's people) voted to not enforce taxation with force of any kind?

I don't see why that should be impossible. I have a funny feeling it wouldn't be very practical though!

Because systems that do not provide such transparency will eventually be made illegal?

> Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it.

That's simply not true. When I do my taxes I have to report my yearly income. The kind of system where a government can monitor all of my transactions in real time is without any court involvement is insane.

You might as well use your bank card as at least those require a warrant or subpoena to acquire.

The text of the announcement seems to imply that individual transactions are not identifiable. The tax is taken per-transaction by the bank on behalf of the government or regulating entity without knowledge of the participants.

> When you pay with Taler, your identity does not have to be revealed to the merchant. The bank, government and mint will also never learn how you spent your electronic money.

Or something. The details aren't there yet.

> The tax is taken per-transaction by the bank on behalf of the government or regulating entity without knowledge of the participants.

Sounds like a strictly proportional system only, then?

Most taxes that merchants and consumers need to worry about at the time of transaction, such as sales taxes in the US and VAT in the EU, are strictly proportional to the value of each purchase.

I don't think Taler is meant to help you do your taxes at the end of the year.

> That's simply not true. When I do my taxes I have to report my yearly income.

And the reason you report your income correctly, and trust that your neighbors do too is...

A presumption of guilt? Better DRM their currency.

> without taxes modern society cannot function at all

This is a great example of an argument from ignorance. We can't conceive of a high-functioning society without taxes, therefore, let it be known that one cannot exist.

Sounds to me like you're talking about some kind of post-modern society.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you like having a fire service, national health system, comprehensive education, social security, national defense, etc.

Seems to be Pretty much spot-on. It's (claimed) anonymous crypto-currency without the cryto-anarchism.

The authors are employed by TU Munich and Inria Rennes, paid for by taxes, so I guess they assume that some taxation is necessary. At least they designed some anonymity into the taxation interface. How much remains to be seen.

It goes both ways: it prevents a corrupt government from trying to overtax you by just saying you made more than you did, and it could prevent corporations from evading taxes.

You do realize that governments make the laws, and that they can just raise taxes rather than try to dispute your tax report?

But then they can't lie about it, at least not as easily. And if they were better able to collect from tax-evading corporations, maybe they wouldn't need to tax individuals as much.

And if they were better able to collect from tax-evading corporations, maybe they wouldn't need to tax individuals as much.

  - Humphrey, this paper says that if we cancel Trident and bring in conscription, we
    shall have £1.5 billion for tax cuts, and what do I find?
  - What do you find, Prime Minister?
  - The Chancellor opposes me. A great chance to be popular with the voters and he
    says no. Doesn't that surprise you?
  - No.
  - Why doesn't it surprise you?
  - He's advised by the Treasury and they don't believe in giving money back.
  - It's not theirs. It's the taxpayers'.
  - That's not the view the Treasury takes. Not once they've got it.
  - But if they don't need it?
  - Sorry?
  - If they don't need it.
  - Taxation isn't about what you need.
  - What is it about?
  - The Treasury doesn't work out what they need to spend and then think how to raise
    the money.
  - What DOES it do?
  - They pitch for as much as they think they can get away with, then think what to
    spend it on. If you start giving money back because you don't need it, you're
    breaking with centuries of tradition!

Because there's already enough loopholes for you to use if you really don't want to show your income to the government?

I'm not sure what exactly this kind of tracking helps with; it would be nice if they had more examples or case studies.

If I had to guess, automatic calculation of income tax. No need to file taxes.

Is this not automatic in most of the countries of the world?

Not in the US, sadly.

I would guess it is not automatic in most countries of the world, except for a few developed countries.

Not even in developed countries! If you go to the US for example you will find people doing everyday transactions such as wage payments, taxis or grocery shopping still using pieces of paper with numbers on them. You have to see it to believe it.

This is true: I know a business that employs about fifteen employees, and one of the owners looks at the withholding tables every two weeks.

I can see this as maybe being an alternative to credit cards, which I don't like.

That said, I agree, we're surveilled enough thanks.

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