The Plane Giving the F-35 a Run for Its Money
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- The A-10's survivability is overrated. The Air Force conducted studies after both Gulf Wars and found that the A-10 was taking higher damage per sortie when compared in '91 to '03. That Iraq's air defense was in shambles didn't seem to diminish the fact that the A-10 was becoming more vulnerable to more sophisticated weapons. Technology has made cheaper weapons more effective since the 1970s in which this was designed. In a higher threat environment, the lack of sophisticated sensors, threat identification, and ECM is seen as not boding well.
- The A-29 is a fantastic plane. But it's giving the A-10 a run for it's money, not the F-35. In the low-threat COIN environment, it has all of the benefits of the A-10 with none of the drawbacks. That famous cannon isn't always idea against militants in the mountains when you're worried about spraying your own troops. That the A-19 can carry small guided weapons just like the A-10 gives it capabilities where it counts. And it's half to a third of the price to purchase and maintain.
So the A-10 is getting squashed from two sides: The F-35 can penetrate the high-threat environment, and provide CAS in a lethal SAM environment, while the A-29 can provide CAS/COIN against militants in a low to non-existent threat environment. There is no middle ground. It left when air defense systems gained the sophisticated tracking and accuracy that wasn't there in the 1970s and 80s.
The A-10 was a fantastic plane and well designed for the time in which it was envisioned to fight. But even I agree that it's time has passed. Like the F-14, it's sad to see it go, but I think it's the right call.
I agree the article's title sucks. The point is that military political dysfunction managed to get rid of all ground support airplanes while mumbling "F-35" when anybody asked about ground support.
Aerial supremacy doesn't protect you against portable rockets or smaller AA guns, unless you are willing to just kill everything on the ground, which isn't really an option in the current scenarios. A bomber or fighter is relatively well protected against those by height and speed, close air support has to fly low and slow to properly engage targets.
The new profile is that last part, at least for our current problems. If we're going up against the Russians or Chinese, then we'll be back to F35's doing standoff at 100 miles.
They're all talking about sending in the F-35 first, but to me you actually send in cruise missiles and or drones first to take out the known threats, and then send in the F-35 to take out in-flight enemy aircraft.
Assuming you have half decent satellite intelligence (which we know the US does), it doesn't make sense for the US to risk pilot's lives no matter what they're flying.
I posted a link above where it went into detail the vulnerability the A-10 has to small mobile and man-portable missile systems. These warnings became evident in Desert Storm and only got more pronounced as this level of technology trickled down.
The A-10 was viewed as capable in the 70s and 80s, where your primary threats were guns and early mobile missile systems. And even then, the expectation was that the expected lifetime was not very long. They would delay and harass Soviet first-echelon forces, and pay a heavy cost for doing so.
That they took notable losses from a second-rate ground force that had been heavily attributed for 8 years against Iran told the Air Force that this day they would need to be retired would come sooner than expected. They were fine enough for the Balkans and Iraq in '03 when you could reasonably expect to eliminate most anti-air threats with the F-16, but this isn't expected to be feasible in the next conflict. Speed, sensors, and countermeasures (stealth and ECM) are what's needed. Low and slow won't be sufficient unfortunately. The A-10C got some of these improvements in the sensors and ECM department, but unfortunately it's not enough.
I'm not sure how the F-35 fits into this. One of the issues with the B-2's is that our fleet is tiny and they're super-expensive to run and carry limited ordinance. I suspect they may take some pressure off the B-2's with their mixed role.
They will be carrying cruise missiles too. Because $1m is quite a bit less than $100m (the plane).
And no, the rear of the F-35 isn't much less stealth than the front. You're probably thinking of IR.
It is pretty nonexistent from the back - thanks to huge, not really stealth-enabling shaped engine. (Look how different the F22 is from the rear)
They paint a compelling picture that the Air Force is stumping to ditch CAS as "unsexy" so they spin as hard as they can against the A-10.
Example: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/now-the-u-s-air-force-wants...
A good example is their piece comparing aircraft carriers to battleships in the 1941, where they claimed the navy missed the danger of air attack on capital ships because it had never been done before. Ten minutes on Google would have been enough to keep someone from making that assertion.
There's a good follow-up on the F-35 as well, here: http://baloogancampaign.com/2015/03/23/f-35/
The F-35 has no hope of doing sustained CAS. It is another Air Force "drop your bombs and fire a few shots then run home" plane. An A-10 can keep insurgents away from your troops for a fair amount of time.
They should strip the Air Force of its CAS role and hand it back to the Army. Then the Air Force can concentrate on what it likes: strategic bombing and air dominance.
1) http://defensetech.org/2015/01/02/a-tale-of-two-gatling-guns...
We've been seeing quite a bit in Afghanistan now where CAS is actually being performed by a B-1 carrying a SNIPER pod, sitting up at medium altitude with a large load of small precision bombs.
But that shows you the type of environment Afghanistan is, where the Air Force can deploy high value assets like a B-1 to perform CAS, because their anti-air threat is non-existent. The Air Force is not developing the F-35 to fight insurgents, they're deploying it to fight a well equipped, conventional force that will have multiple layers of sophisticated weapons. They'll do everything they can to soften these up before the strike aircraft go in. But there /will/ be some that remain, and its in this environment, that the F-35 needs to survive.
In the low-threat environment against insurgents, you can do that job just as well as the A-10 with the A-29 as the article states, for ever cheaper.
This is the conclusion that the Air Force has come to, and that's why they're retiring the A-10.
The Air Force hates CAS and will say anything to get out of it. The fact that a modern version of the A-10 has not been developed (the F-35 is not a modern version) says everything about the Air Force's direction.
For that matter, the Apache is considerably more fragile than the A-10.
Drones would be perfect for long dwell time CAS, as long as they carry enough ordnance for a prolonged sortie.
Essentially the F35 is the blu-ray of fighter planes.
Thing is that mechanically neither product more convenience for Joe Consumer.
While the CD brought instant track selection vs the cassette (and was a more practical size than the LP), the DVDA/SACD didn't bring anything close vs the CD.
And similarly the DVD removed the whole rewinding issue vs VHS, never mind that you could now pack a whole series season in the shelf space of a single VHS movie.
Frankly i just wish that we could have something floppy like in terms of UI For BRRW discs. copy, paste, done, rather than having to mess with burner programs etc to lay out the disc beforehand.
How are bullets less discriminate than a bomb?
This assumes, of course, your target identification is correct. Which doesn't always happen. But it's an improvement.
The A-29 is a very capable aircraft in the CAS/COIN role, and has the advantage that its relatively cheap. The A-29 can't take battle damage like an A-10, although A-29 has the major advantage in that its cheap to purchase (less than $20m for the Program Unit Cost) and cheap to fly.
Two of the best CAS aircraft are the A-1 Skyraider and the A-37 Dragonfly. The propeller driven A-1 "Spads" were used to support the rescue of downed aviators over Vietnam. The A-37B (based on the T-37 Tweet) was flown by both USAF and South Vietnamese Air Force pilots quite effectively. These aircraft were cheap to operate, and accurate at weapons delivery.
I'd even go as far as saying the USAF should seriously consider "replacing" the A-37 as the "low" part of the high-low mix with the F-35. Keep the same size and side-by-side layout, and use avionics and "stealth" features of the MQ-9C Avenger [2]. This would enable piloted CAS missions, where drones are impractical.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-1_Skyraider
Oh, but there is. The A-10 was primarily designed as a tankbuster. While the A-29 is fine for the CAS role against irregulars, in a war against a country with lots of armor you'd really want to have the A-10.
It's not remotely clever compared to the Eurofighter, Sukhoi Su-XX jets or similar recent generation multi-role aircraft, but for low speed engagement with flexible hardpoints and easy maintenance, it's hard to find many competitors. Which is weird, given the nature of most aerial combat roles for the past 15 years.
There are a lot of WW2 incidents of friendly fire casualties from ground attack aircraft, both from aircraft attacking their own guys to aircraft being downed from anti-aircraft fire from their own side. This happened to all sides in WW2.
It's close air support vs. strategic bombing. Close air support happens from low altitude, bombing from high altitude.
This argument is useless without determining how many incidents like the example described at the beginning of the article occur, whether they could be avoided with an older plane, and whether the cost of the mistakes made by the newer planes outweighs the advantages they provide.
The enemy is well aware that all they have to do is win an endurance war against an inflexible bureaucracy that bleeds money and outlast the patience of a fickle populace. This was demonstrated recently enough in Vietnam. US strategy was losing, even though they won almost every fight in both wars.
It would take a lot more than this one cheap fighter to outlast the Afghans. At least body count was better this time.
Looking for technological solutions - low or high tech - is just more of the same misguided thinking. The case is lost in a totally different way - it's not technology.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/11/general-...
US hasn't been in a war they HAVE to win since WWII (and even then continental US was pretty safe) so the institutional knowledge that was bought with blood is soon forgotten.
Afghanistan was not won, because there was never a criteria for winning towards which the military and the state department to work. And the fact that US has the habit of cooperating with the wrong people in third world countries, makes things worse.
If the US had courts in Afghanistan in which to try corruption, Afghanistan would be a better country now.
For example in WW2 there was Bomber Mafia. Nearly as bad as F35 mafia
The British also had a bomber mafia. But they were obsessed with nighttime raids that just carpet bombed cities. These were safer for crews, but completely ineffective. They just destroyed cities and massacred civilians.
The US and Britain agreement was to divide sorties in Europe into daytime (US) and nighttime (Britain), and pre-GPS accuracy at night pretty-much dictates aiming for vary large targets.
The obsession came with Dresden, but that seems to be a different point to the one you were making.
Britain would have been better off just not building those bombers and bombs. The resources could have been diverted into something else. Maybe fighter escorts for the daytime raids?
I'm not trying to totally destroy the British contribution to the war. It is just that this policy of night time carpet bombing was totally misguided.
I disagree with you that RAF bombing achieved nothing though. Plenty of industrial facilities were destroyed, major dams, V2 rocket facilities, etc. If you lived in London then you'd probably be reasonably pleased by the destruction of a V2 facility, even if the long-term strategic difference was negligible.
You have to understand that we Brits are quite used to our armed forces contribution being erased from history by Hollywood so can be a bit defensive about Americans making sweeping generalisations in this area. We will argue you down to the details.
The best thing the Brits did was use double-agents to send the Germans misinformation about where they were striking. They gradually convinced the Germans that the rockets were landing on the far side of London harmlessly. The physics behind the V2 at the time clearly placed it as striking London, but the misinformation essentially demanded changes in the engineering. London was still hit plenty though, so this intelligence campaign was not a total success.
If this had actually been totally successful, the Brits might as well have helped Germany setup more V2 factories. Each V2 was extremely costly in terms of materials to produce. This removed available materials from the parts of the war effort that actually needed them.
Korean war was winnable for the same reason. Huge numbers there. Even today. Here you can see the long tail of Korean war. http://www.heritage.org/~/media/images/reports/chart5_1.ashx...
Vietnam was not winnable because general population didn't support such high numbers for occupation. There we're practically no U.S. troops left for the last two years of the war.
Since Vietnam U.S. cannot use draft. So U.S. can only conquer one, maybe two countries while keeping Korea and Europe under control. But that leaves those troops bound on foreign soil. Which in turn limits U.S. power projection and therefore cannot be the long term solution.
Wars have not changed. DoD just would love to find a way to win wars without the ensuing occupation. And that's unlikely to happen.
If there is a dictator and you simply become the new dictator, then keeping a country is easy. That would have been because none of the military leaders would have any loyalty among the people. But nationalism has happened since and it's questionable if this would hold anymore.
If there is large number of Feudal lords, this makes taking France potentially easy as some of them would betray the king. But on the other hand they would have loyalty of the people with them.
Times have changed, otherwise Iraq should be peace of cake now that Saddam is dead.
We go out of our way to not harm civilians, the very same who likely are supporting the people we are trying to kill and this has the effect of extending the length of any war. There are some who claim inflicting civilian casualties only encourages the enemy but history has proven time and time again that simply is not true.
War is ultimately a contest of wills. It's not that you can't beat irregulars, it's that you have to be so brutal the folks at home won't tolerate it unless the threat is existential.
There are over 30 million people in Afganistan and about 13000 Nato troops. If that works out, U.S. has gotten better occupying countries.
But, yeah 2nd gulf wars were boondoggles.
So the F-35's lower hourly rate is almost the same as the Hornet's upper rate? Doesn't seem like that much of a deal.
Also it costs the same to feed a pilot of any aircraft, ditto ATC and commo guys and all the rear echelon folks, although none of those costs were included in the mfgrs estimate.
No matter how badly the numbers are fudged its probably still one order of magnitude cheaper, perhaps a little more.
The reality is that Canadian planes have not engaged in air-to-air combat since the Korean war, but virtually every conflict the CF participates in requires close-air support. That mission is currently fulfilled by CF-18's. The A-29, or a similar plane, could provide superior CAS capability for far less money. Then, as an added bonus, the successor to the CF-18 would not need to be compromised for CAS, as the F-35 is. Canada could look for a pure air-superiority fighter, and buy a smaller number of them because they would not be called upon to perform CAS. The end result would be an air force that's better at it's primary roles and far cheaper, and Canadian forces (and their allies) on the ground would be far safer.
Maybe I'm wrong?
Not all modern fighters have started as a multi-role, but every good fighter has ended up as one.
If I'm remembering properly, my grandfather was stationed in Yemen in '63-'64 as an aircraft field mechanic. Their mission was purely observational: every 12 hours, fly over the border and count any accumulation of military equipment. I believe they had a DHC-3 Twin Otter.
I don't know the specifics, but looking at the specifications: 945 mile range, 121 mph cruise speed on the DHC-3. That's give or take a 6-7 hour loiter (they were landing in the desert and had fuel trucks come daily). It's harder to get exact specs on how a CF-18 would perform on such a mission, but I've got a pretty good feeling it's not going to be landing on any gravel airstrips, nor is it going to be fun trying to count vehicles on the ground.
When I think of peacekeeping missions, I think of boots on the ground, ideally with air support. Looking at the A-29 from the article, that sounds a lot more like the type of aircraft that should be providing that support.
Which is why the SF team unfortunately called the strike on them selves - this happened a couple of times I belive.
though the big issues with the tiger and panther was the horrible maintenance issues.
This idea that the only thing that matters is what you already have creates a race - can you crush resistance before those who are resisting realize that you have limited long-term capability?
In Iraq, we had time to spool up production of MRAPs to counter IEDs, and were pretty quick to deploy equipment that would aid in COIN warfare.
But MRAPs would be shit in a real war against a peer grade opponent; too heavy, too slow, confined to roads, poor overall performance.
But let's give another anecdote about the A10. In Iraq, the A10, just like the B52 in Afghanistan, was responsible for killing two truck loads of British soldiers. Its pilot mistook the luminous arrow signs that indicated friendly forces for missile systems.
In Afghanistan, an American Apache mowed down a platoon of British troops after being called in as air support and mistaking the troops for the enemy.
The thing that links all these incidences is not low or high tech but the American military. Clearly its pilots, soldiers, staff are not trained properly. Just a bunch of reckless idiots. Much like the government that sent them.
No, the thing that links them all is war - it's incredibly messy and people have been killing the wrong people in wars for as long as men have been fighting.
I'm not saying this applies to all US military personnel or that other militaries do not have problems.
Deploying air forces in an expeditionary capability is difficult and expensive. It's much more difficult than deploying a ground unit. Few forces have this capability.
When you're in Afghanistan, and 90% of the CAS sorties are performed by the U.S., then it stands to reason that if an incident occurs, it'll likely have been a U.S. aircraft based on odds alone.
It's probably drifting out of scope of this conversation, but it can probably never be reemphasized enough that these will be the consequences of any war, and as such, a war should never be seen as a favorable outcome. In that, I definitely agree with you.
And this is not "entirely predicated on anecdotal evidence"? You've described two incidents, and extrapolated from there to call an entire military (in this case, more than 2 million people) improperly trained "reckless idiots."
The incidents are serious. But without any attempt to qualify the rate of these accidents relative to the number of engagements, or a comparison to other militaries in other conflicts around the world, it sounds like you're just riding an axe.
Do you have a link for this?
Here's a list I found that doesn't seem to mention w whole platoon getting killed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incident...
Maybe British FACs just suck. <--I can generalize too.
If you need a turboprop attack plane to deal with a specific threat, you can fast track something cheaply because it's a widely known/used technology. The converse isn't true. You can't go back and decide you need a top tier $trillion fighter in a month.
Loiter time is important. Yet most military engagements in history are decided by speed and firepower.
Well yes that may be true.
However, it's more likely a battleship would sink a cigarette boat with a precision guided weapon a second after it becomes visible on the horizon.
By the same yardstick I assume Vice thinks a helicopter is da Vinci era?
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The turboprop ( geared propellor driven by a jet engine ) is still the most efficient means of aviation propulsion devised; it surpassed internal-combustion engines in efficiency in the early 1960s, with the Turboméca Astazou, and continued to improve.
Turboprops fall-off in efficiency with altitude and speed, but below around 20,000 ft and 400 kts they're the champions.
It has a freaking digital attitude indicator!
By saying "WWII-era," the title very succinctly sums up the idea that "hey, there's this interesting airplane that's been in the works alongside the very expensive F-35, but it's actually much cheaper and much less technologically advanced, but actually much better suited for the war in Afghanistan--and it resembles the types of fighter planes that you've seen in 'Pearl Harbor' and 'Saving Private Ryan'."
The title is meant to convey as much information to the audience (a general, non-technical audience) in as few words as possible, and it mostly does its job.
If you read the article, it's clear that the authors understand the difference.
(P.S. Of course it was click bait and purposefully done so, there is an art to creating clickbait headlines that can be defended as not being clickbait.)
Actually, I got a psychic to get me direct access to their brain, so I'm sure they aren't lying. But they could be incorrectly remembering it. So we still can't be certain. For it to be 100% not a guess, I'm going to need to get go back in time with my time machine and have the psychic come with me, but he is saying something about how that could cause problems.
So sadly we are stuck just inferring (guessing) with the information given.
Yes but its inaccurate. Cold war era would get the point across just fine.
True, that's nearly too young even to properly qualify as space age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Milit...
Anything else you need?