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Comment by yardie | Hacker News Reader

I've rarely met anyone that has actually "worked" a full 8 hours. The marathon work days where you actually do 8, and more likely 16, are few and far between. Once you exclude the coffee breaks, snack breaks, stretch breaks, brain breaks, etc. you easily get back to 6 hours. Hell if you are on here and at work you are technically not working. Most managers will overlook the occasional reddit or YC page load because they know it's hard to "crush it" for hours straight.

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You're absolutely right. I get to work at 8 and start to lose steam around 1 (hence why I'm here). I would gladly buy an extra two hours in return for the expectation that work is for work goofing around is for home.

I think the contemporary startup idea that people have to be "working and playing" at the office for 10-14 hours a day to make anything significant happen is at worst, misguided, and, to a cynic like me, just a way to grind people out of your company before they can vest any significant amount of equity.

An equally cynical explanation is that they do it to kill anything you have going on outside of work (social life, side projects), which could compete with work for your attention.

Except that nobody's actually that interested in you.

It's not that misguided. I'm one of those people who can't really work full steam for many hours, so to get 6 real hours out of me, I need to be in the office for about 10 hours.

You are the reason for all the pain and suffering in the world.

Kidding.

I'm not completely disparaging the long workday and loads of perks to keep you at the office. It is nice to have good food nearby most hours of the day, and amenities such as gyms help coalesce my time at the office around the "productive" part of my day. Where it falls apart is when managers have to justify their employees' work: even if the 6hr worker and the 10hr worker are equally productive, they're going to point to the 10 every time to justify their employees' salary and their own ability of a manager to get more out of them. Then the 6hr worker is asked to stay later for "team morale," which often amounts to little more than twiddling thumbs and waiting out the clock, with hopefully some of that time spent wondering why they're even there in the first place.

Sorry :) ... I do wonder if I could actually work 6hr/day whether I would spend them working harder. One can dream...

Also, fuck people asking you to stay for "team morale". If you left earlier, I'd think "If I worked harder, maybe they would let me leave earlier, too..."

Unfortunately that isn't how this would play out long term. With a six hour work day, people would just work for 5 hours and goof off for the rest of the time. If we reduced to day further, we would see a corresponding, proportional decrease in the ratio of productive to unproductive time.

Well, I don't believe that for a second and it sounds like you made it up.

I (and others) anecdotally lose steam part way through the day. The last couple hours are a waste. I see no reason why that would happen earlier if the day ended earlier.

Sorry I disagree. See I work in Paris. Where the populace regularly work 35-45 hours and then take month long holidays. My contract allows a minimum of 35 hours/week. Anything after that is voluntary. I normally work the typical 8x5 week. When I decide to do 7x5 I strip out all the extra bullshit and focus on getting out the office. No breaks, meetings, phone calls, etc. my colleagues in he US don't care and don't know. I've worked a full day just like them, but an hour less.

People often project their work aesthetic onto others. Americans live at work, joke, etc and put in longer hours because it is expected (this leads to more goofing off actually) where some other cultures just do work while at work and then go home. Don't assume everyone is the same.

This article is about nurses, though. In the US many ER nurses work 12 hour shifts and they obviously don't have the option of personal downtime. It's likely that as "computer" people we're already reaping much of the benefit discussed.

This article is about nurses in care homes. They aren't under the same constraint as an ER nurse.

Reason why ER nurses work 12 is continuance of care. You're better off being looked after by 2 shifts who are familiar with your case rather than 3 or 4. More people just add complexity

In Sweden "work" entails 8hours + 1hour set aside for obligatory break time. Is it different in the states?

Also, I can't see how 6hours would mean no stretch/brain breaks.

In the US, "work" is split into "exempt" and "non-exempt" status. "Non-exempt" workers are paid by the hour and have mandatory benefits if they work 40 hours and overtime pay if they work more than 40, so most employers will aim for 35 or so.

"Exempt" workers, which is most of us in the tech industry, are paid a salary and have essentially no limit to the hours that may be asked of us.

> and have essentially no limit to the hours that may be asked of us.

You may be asked, but do you really have to accept? (I'm asking from Europe) It sounds insane to sell 24 of your hours per day for any typical salary?

Nobody HAS to accept the working hours required by their employer. You're always free to quit and try to find another job that requires fewer hours.

But how can you make the contract (even if it's not formal) in which the employer pays X dollars fixed and the employee "has to work as much unspecified amount of work"? If the employee sells his work, he's selling without the possibility to measure how much he sells? Isn't it absurd? Or is it specified as "after 50 hours per week you can really go home?"

Welcome to "at will" employment. Besides some very specific exceptions, including race, gender, etc., employers are free to fire you for any reason or for no reason. Similarly, you are free to quit for any reason or no reason.

I'm amazed that the apparent "high skilled professionals" are satisfied with such vague conditions under which they sell themselves. It doesn't sound professional at all not having the limits and not organizing the protection of the profession. Please excuse me, that's how it appears in some European countries where what the rights are protected by the organizations of professionals (or even workers) and at the latest level by the laws.

That's why we need reform of the Fair Labor Standards Act to do a number of things including, but not limited to the following:

1. Abolish "At-will" employment and replace it with "Just Cause". This will bring the US in line with the rest of the developed world.

2. Implement working time restrictions similar to the European Working Time Directive for both exempt, and non-exempt employees.

We have been in a race to the bottom with regard to labor law over the last 30 years.

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