Hacker News Reader

Comment by david_shaw | Hacker News Reader

The most interesting part of the study (to me) was this:

> Cardiovascular exercise was found to increase well-being and decrease psychological distress, perceived stress, and emotional exhaustion. Resistance training was noticeably effective in increasing well-being and personal accomplishment and to reduce perceived stress.

and

> Different types of exercise may assist employees in different ways.

I've always been told that exercise improves feelings of well-being, reduces stress, etc. I've never heard about the different effects that different types of exercise can have on the psyche -- although it makes sense, for example, that improving at resistance training would lead to a sense of accomplishment. If taken to its logical conclusion, this study implies that we should be working out in different ways based on the psychological ailments we may be experiencing. That's fascinating to me.

View on HN

> [...] although it makes sense, for example, that improving at resistance training would lead to a sense of accomplishment.

It's not just a sense of accomplishment, it's an actual accomplishment: to be a stronger human being than you once was. And unlike most other accomplishment in life, you're not under anyone's whim or circumstantial luck. There were a big thread on HN just a few months ago on that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9782083

I don't get why cardiovascular training, like running, wouldn't lead to the same feeling of accomplishment. You might not get stronger (in the same obvious way), but you will most certainly be faster.

Because most people don't use tracking apps and because improvements are less obvious.

It's very easy to measure progress when you're lifting. You're putting more on, the numbers are going up. Lifting more weight leads to being able to lift more weight. The path from "lift less" to "lift more" is obvious, easy to measure, and feels a bit like building an MMORPG character.

For running the gains are a lot slower and less correlated to your training. Running 2 minutes faster today than three months ago also doesn't feel as significant as squatting 50kg more than three months ago does.

1. I prefer weight lifting to running, but

2. I think you're pretty off base. The gains for running are just as correlated to your training, and (IMO, obviously, it's unquantifiable) a 10% speed improvement feels exactly as good as a 10% weight increase.

(For reference, I've been a medium good runner and lifter: at my various peaks I've run consistent sub-18 5ks and squatted 5x315lbs)

> For running the gains are a lot slower and less correlated to your training.

This is absolutely untrue, and purely personal anecdotes. Otherwise agree with your first two paragraphs.

I guess I'd agree that it's personal anecdote but not that it's untrue. I have run inconsistently for years and just haven't gotten faster. Maybe I've cracked the code now with low-heart-rate training and sprints, but I haven't done it long enough to see the evidence yet. "Just running" did not increase my speed, even if I was consistent, so to me it seemed like my results were not correlated with my training. I could run longer distances just as slowly, and my body composition did not change for the better. Moreover, "just running" did not make me feel good. So for some people (personal anecdata again) it is fair to say that running gains may be slow and seem uncorrelated with training.

I did make very very quick gains by "just lifting" and so felt very differently about it. These gains were both in strength and body composition, and within only a few months I found that I could impress people. Not at all like running: it's years and I still can't run an 8-minute mile.

If you're running inconsistently, then it's no surprise why then.

I've lifted and run at various times in my life, and I found running a lot more rewarding, especially with all of the bad advice out there that surrounds lifting.

After the past 5 years of mostly running (with some time away at times due to injuries), I went from a 12 minute mile to a sub-7 minute mile in 3 years (with 1 year not doing much in the way of exercise). Consistency with the frequency of exercise matters a lot.

> I went from a 12 minute mile to a sub-7 minute mile in 3 years

A 5 minute difference. Which is amazing. But only to other runners.

Going from a 50kg (110lbs) squat to a 130kg squat (286lbs) in 3 years is almost trivially doable (I've once gone from 50kg to 100kg in 3 months) and is impressive to everyone.

As much as we'd like our motivations to be pure, we really really really like impressing our friends.

It's the same thing, it all depends on intensity and training though. Running a mile in 6 minutes means you're in pretty good shape. Shave two minutes and you're world class at that point.

One of the reasons why weight lifting makes the process more obvious is that lifting is inherently a high intensity workout.

You need Strava in your life. If you get a buzz out of lifting more you will get a buzz out of beating your pb in whatever distance you choose.

Remember this is statistical in nature. Your mileage may vary.

I'm a runner and have found absolutely fantastic feelings of accomplishment and pride, as well as an undeniably healthier and happier lifestyle.

I suspect, as Swizec implied below, it mostly perception. Many runners tend to be less quantitative about performance gains, and therefore have less obvious metrics for advancement.

Does lead to an interesting corollary: does 'gamification' and quantification of athletic advancement improve retention of the habit?

and therefore [runners] have less obvious metrics for advancement.

I'm afraid I don't share your perspective, runners can easily get performance feedback without going overboard with fancy and shiny gadgets.

I'm a regular runner and I live in a coastal city and I frequently take my runs by the seaside. I start at a fixed point and set my finish point within the confines of a certain district/neighborhood and when I can complete the race as I had predicted, I consider this to be success and progress. Sometimes, I set instead a time limit to cover a certain distance and see if I could make it within that limit.

So, no runners can certainly measure their progress and performance improvements/shortcomings in very simple metrics if they so desire.

I don't think "runners tend to be less quantitative about performance gains" is true. There are an enormous number of folks that compete in races and are timed. I would assume most of them care about said time. Also look at the rise of runkeeper, strava, fitbit, garmin and quantified self in general.

Half-marathon fun facts snapshot:

Since 2000, the number of half-marathon finishers in this country has quadrupled (482,000 to 1,960,000) or an impressive increase of 307%. For the first time in history, 61% of U.S. half-marathon finishers were females (approximately 1,196,000, a record), the highest proportion of any race distance. Although their percent fell to 39%, there was also a record 764,000 male finishers last year. Also, in 2013, there were 34 U.S. half-marathons with 10,000 or more finishers (second highest total ever). This data point has doubled since 2009 when there were 17 with 10,000-plus finishers, and in 2000, there was only one. For the year, there were a total of 42 half-marathons that make up the Top 100 U.S. timed road race list with 15 of them from the Rock 'n' Roll Marathon Series. The Nike Women's event in Washington, DC last April was the largest inaugural annual half-marathon ever with 14,478 finishers. Since 2010, 13.1 miles has been the second most popular distance by finishers behind the 5K. According to Running USA's 2013 National Runner Survey, the half-marathon distance is the favorite race distance by core runners nationwide (preferred 38% by men and 43% by women). Last year, there were more than 2,100 active U.S. half-marathons (final road race numbers to be released in an upcoming State of the Sport Report). Per our count, October hosted the most U.S. half-marathons (288), while January had the least (83) in 2013. October 2013 also produced the most 13.1 mile finishers with more than 312,000 and July the least finishers with just under 53,000. http://www.runningusa.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.details&...

http://www.runningusa.org/statistics http://www.runningusa.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.details&...

    > There are an enormous number of folks that compete in
    > races and are timed

There are an enormouser number who go casually running a few times a week, and don't really time themselves.

With lifting weights, you lift a specified fixed numerical quantity that generally you need to record so you lift the same or more the week after.

My observation is that most casual lifters don't keep records either.

I was totally out of shape two years ago and started doing both lifting and running. My progress was quicker with lifting then running so I've chosen to focus more on lifting. I like the Immediate feedback of getting one more rep then previously instead of having to finish a run and then see my time. ALthough my cardio is not good by any means lifting three times a week and running two times a week has made me feel more energetic in my daily life. Since I have no desire to do races that's good enough for me. This may change now that i have a Xiaomi mi band, I've found my self spending more time on the Treadmill even if it's just walking so I can get that vibration telling me I hit my goal for the day.

Not at all.

I'm a sprinter, so I do take a quantitative approach to running.

I also lift weights, and I would say that I do so seriously. But my weights are my own body and big rice sacks filled with water bottles that I heave around in various ways until I'm tired. I'm an experienced enough athlete to know when I'm hitting my limits, without following any specific metric.

You don't need to record the weights you lift. You can tell how hard something is to lift just by picking it up. I lift weights all the time, and I couldn't tell you how much I could lift if I wanted to. I set a machine to a hard amount to lift, and I just lift it a bunch of times until I can't lift anymore.

I don't get it either. But anecdotally, I feel accomplished after lifting but beat down after cardio, regardless of how tiring either the workout is.

If you don't lift much, it is kind of hard to describe, but there is this feeling after lifting heavy shit that is just a total peace with the world.

Could have something to do with the hormones and neurotransmitters that the body gets flooded with after lifting, could just be light-headed, could be something to do with all the tiny muscle tears...not entirely sure.

On the flip side, I'm a bigger guy(6'5"), and I just feel beat down and ache for days if I do any substantial distance running.

Sprinting though, seems to have similar physiological symptoms as lifting, and I believe several studies have shown that intensity rather than duration of exercise produces these effects.

Try riding a bike if you're too heavy to run. I am naturally built for sprinting but I get huge satisfaction out of middle distance running. Over 5k and I start to feel as you described. I also enjoy lifting but it requires a partner, costs money to do and is inside, usually in a brightly lit artificial environment, so I only do it in the winter if at all. The bike on the other hand I can do for 6-8 hours no problem as long as I have enough food on board. I usually only do about 1-2 hours but I could really go for ever and always feel great afterwards. It just takes a little while to get used to sitting in the saddle. The first few rides might result in saddle soreness but after you get used it and buy a good set of shorts you'll never look back.

I was a competitive swimmer growing up so I usually hit the pool when I feel like cardio.

Have also done a good amount of biking but haven't lived in an area that's safe for it in a while.

Putting your head beneath water also has a calming effect. And just listening to air bubbles while you're focusing in swimming technique is a great stress reliever (for me).

Lifting in a gym is not necessary. I get a fantastic workout by doing body weight training and lifting weighted sacks that I made with materials costing ~5$.

Why does lifting require a partner? I've been lifting for ages now, and aside from requesting spots for bench (which most people are happy to do) I've always lifted alone.

Of course, it's different if you're constantly doing 1RMs, but I doubt your workout consists solely of that.

The most benefit comes from pushing the last almost impossible rep regardless of how many reps you are doing. I just don't feel safe without a spotter.

Just switch to bench press using dumbbells. It's safer, doesn't require a spotter, and encompasses a wider range of motion making it, arguably, a better all around exercise than bar bench press.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any other major exercises that require a spotter. Squats maybe? But for those you can just use a smith machine.

I used to only go to the gym when I had a friend to go with (this was back in college so it wasn't a huge pain). Starting to go by myself was the best change I ever made. Not being beholden to another's schedule for your own wellbeing is a glorious thing indeed.

Don't use a smith machine. Find a gym with (or buy) a proper squat rack with safety bars that you can adjust to the proper height if you do have to bail out of a squat.

With a smith machine, you don't get the full range of motion you have with real barbell squats - it's straight-line up and down. I also am not a fan of the twisting motion you need to perform to get the bar locked in.

> Could have something to do with the hormones and neurotransmitters that the body gets flooded with after lifting, could just be light-headed, could be something to do with all the tiny muscle tears...not entirely sure.

Endorphins are often given as a reason for why exercise makes people feel better. But when you give people an endorphin blocker (so the endorphins can't have any effect) you still get reports that exercise helped those people.

There are about 12 possible plausible mechanisms of action for why exercise may help improve mood. Thermo-regulation is another that seems promising.

Hm, try racing. I race to the local track with our sports car, the rush (and fear) when from 180km/h in 100m I have to go down to 80 km/h and make the turn, then try to make the same turn at 85 km/h with my hands trembling and adrenaline sky-rocketing.

Or when you snowboard instead of a slalom you go just straight reaching 50-60 km/h with the board... Or after a big jump... (or when you understand that there's no place to go and you're gonna crash no matter what :-P ).

There are really, very few things that can be compared with a pure adrenaline rush.

I'm a huge fan of adrenaline too but as I get older self preservation has become a more prominent concern. There have been too many moments in my life that were too close to call and a few where the payoff didn't happen. After those failed gambles I had to spend the next years trying to regain my mobility and get back in shape again. Though only anecdotal runners/lifters high is a much more sustainable lifestyle choice.

Tip: If you do strength training, stay away from the bar. Yes, the traditional "big 3" all involve a bar, but there are safer alternatives using dumbbells. While dangerous technique is probably possible in any exercise, my personal experience is that it's easier to fuck up and hurt yourself using a bar.

I have the impression that there's' a trade-off between effectiveness and safety though, and this advice is pretty far towards the safe side of the spectrum.

For what it's worth, I've had the opposite experience and never fail to tweak my back when using dumbbells.

Barbell training is quite safe if you learn proper technique.

Also, if strength is a goal, it's very difficult to work with heavier weights without a bar.

I can only recommened the opposite: if you are doing strength training by all means use mostly barbells and stick to the big 3 (some sort of press, a squat and a deadlift variations). I hurt my back, shoulder and knees doing various machines and dumbbell variations over the last 15 years, the fear in regards to lifting heavy with barbells usually stems from horrible technique, most people do not realize that lifting is a sport that needs to be learned, it's not enough to just "push the weight".

How did you hurt yourself on machines/dumbbells? Not rhetorical - I would like to avoid doing the same mistakes.

And yes, I do have horrible technique. And since I don't have a personal trainer, no one is ever going to tell me when my technique slips, so I'd rather not rely on it.

Mostly by overstretching particular joints under load, eg. behind the neck presses and pulldowns & pushing myself on dumbbell presses with weights I could move but barely control, at one point I lost control but did not drop the weights.

The others where loading up machines with weights I could not have moved if it weren't for the fixed movement plane of the machine, that ultimately meant trouble for my lower back (leg press) and grinding in my knees (leg extensions).

btw, most personal trainers are horrible at teaching proper technique. I'd recommened the books written by Marc Rippetoe and Bill Starr and watching videos by powerlifting coaches and lifters (that do not focus on lifting in gear). I could 'fix' (read: strengthen and work around) my back troubles with deadlifting, but would not recommened that to someone without a guide or knowledgeable help at hand.

You can improve your technique a lot by carefully watching Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength DVD. Ask someone to record video of you lifting every now and then and get a feel for your body in space or upload it to youtube for advice if you're unsure.

I definitely recommend the opposite. I've found that machines often force me into a pattern of movement that may not jibe with my body mechanics or build.

I'd recommend doing the big 3, but starting off light. Focus on improving the movement. Record yourself, fix your form, develop awareness of your body position (for example - what does "butt tucked in" feel like?) and learn how to dump the bar if something goes wrong.

Above all: don't let your ego get in the way. There's a fine line between "just one more" and "one too many".

Lifting is great for stress beating. For me it's that feeling when you're right at the end of a set, you don't think you can possibly do the last rep, and you grit your teeth and just.. do.. one.. more. Nothing else matters at that moment, actually you're incapable of thinking of anything else. Then when you do it, the release and sense of accomplishment is fantastic.

I get the same from full out, pumping-every-last-muscle-fiber sprinting too. It's something about the all-encompassing physicality of it - the brain almost goes into an instinct mode and all you can focus on is going as fast as possible, there's no room for anything else. Talk about a perfect way to get your mind off something!

I think though, for me, the best thing to do is a reasonable distance run (5k +) with a full-out sprint finish. During the distance part you get to really chew over whatever it is that you have to think about or that's stressing you out - then the sprint finish gives you a kind of catharsis at the end where, as above, you forget all about everything else for a minute or so and just, push!

Afterwards you feel so great that everyday stresses just fall away. Very few things feel nicer than being able to just stop, breathe, and walk slowly after a 5k with a sprint finish!

More feeling of accomplishment because lifting increases testosterone much more than cardio.

Lifting has the added benefit of increasing bone strength which is very important for men and women who develop osteoporosis more frequently.

Lifting makes you feel like you have beat something. You have overpowered it with sheer brute strength.

Running makes you (well, me at least) feel like you have outlasted something. You have endured and overcome.

Both are accomplishments, but feel different. I feel much more like shouting & strutting in triumph in the first case than the second :)

I don't know if you've ever done any weight training, but if you lift heavy enough and/or enough volume, and get "the pump", that's the reason. Basically your muscles swell up and harden as blood flow increases into the fatigued muscles and you feel bigger, stronger, more powerful than ever. Couple that with the rush of whatever drugs your brain gets flooded with, and you pretty much feel like superman for a while.

Schwarzenegger at one point famously (in "Pumping Iron") described it as better than having an orgasm, and it's hard not to agree.

I haven't done much running, but when I have, I've never felt anything similar - breaking personal records when running would leave me wanting to collapse in a heap on the ground. Breaking personal records when lifting tends to make me walk around like I'd just broken a world record and everyone was watching.

yet the description was quite obviously a joke by schwarzenegger and was thought to get the attention of the public/media, no one seriously into weight lifting would ever say that. if you don't believe me watch the making of pumping iron - the 25 anniversary version.

As someone seriously into weight lifting, though it's a bit of an exaggeration, I found the description quite apt, and I know plenty of people seriously into weight lifting who agree with that. It's a different feeling, and not the rapid, massive rush, but it also last far longer. I had to choose, I'm not so sure I'd choose the orgasm.

I've read that the rush you get from "the pump" is a function of steroid use I haven't done a ton of weight training, but I've never felt this euphoria. I've definitely felt the runner's high - but only once after a very very intense run

I'm going to put this one down to interpersonal variation because I'm at best an intermediate lifter (BW 90kg, BP62.5 3x5, SQ85, DL 110 3x5) and I feel awesome after lifting weights. Same thing after doing Ashtanga Yoga. I just feel euphoric after really using my body, like, yeah, I just did that.

The variety of human experience is massive, some people are tetrachromats, some can't visualise at all, some can't experience romantic love.

"some can't experience romantic love"

Completely unrelated, but this struck me.. is this an actual thing? I have a lot of difficulty believing it

I've never used steroids, but I most certainly feel that kind of rush regularly.

He talked about the "better than sex" quote. It was hype for the movie. It worked, though.

insert popular image of a marathon runner vs a sprinter - cardio eats your muscles

"what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable" —Socrates.

Original: “Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit. But you cannot see that, if you are careless; for it will not come of its own accord.” (http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-cgi/citequery3.pl?dbname...)

"strong people are harder to kill" -- Mark Rippetoe

"sense of accomplishment" is a buzz phrase that covers actual accomplishment. As in, "both my career and volunteer work give me a sense of accomplishment". People rarely say they have sense of accomplishment from something where there is no actual, objective accomplishment (without going out of their way to clarify that such is the case).

I'm wondering how much the decrease of psychological distress originates from the same effects as meditation gives. While doing cardio exercise, often the mind is forced to be focused on the body and the exercise.

this is a very interesting idea! I do wonder how similar the effects of the two are...

Endorphins[1] are produced upon exercise. Also for those who do sports like racing, skiing, etc. There's the 'adrenaline rush' which leaves you an amazing feeling (sometimes literally goosebumps) when you successfully do something dangerous. I get this feeling when racing on the track and snowboarding.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphins

Simple explanation would be that resistance exercise makes it much easier to measure progress (by lbs you are able to lift) than cardiovascular excercise. That's the reason why it gives you more sense of accomplishment.

I know that the progress may be mesured in aerobic excercise as well (by measuring time it takes to cover specific distance), but time is an abstract concept, and the bar with weights can be seen with the naked eye.

Different exercise results in different hormones and neurotransmitters.

Lifting should stimulate testosterone production to some degree.

Endurance exercise should trigger endorphin releases.

habituation and potentiation related to the increased average bloodstream presence of either NT or hormone type may lead to observable behavioral changes, etc.

Interesting!

Crossfit is built around that, several years ago now.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com