The Hardest Places in the World to Visit | Hacker News Reader

The Hardest Places in the World to Visit

theatlantic.com

121 pointsantigizmo73 comments

If you liked the article, you'll probably enjoy travel notes by Artemy Lebedev who is just two countries behind: http://tema.ru/eng/travel/countries/

One country he had hard time getting into is Turkmenistan: http://tema.ru/eng/travel/turkmenistan-2/ The visas are declined and the search form on the airline site is actually a jpg.

The North Korea travel notes are a good read as well: http://tema.ru/eng/travel/north-korea/

Artemy's photos of Pitcairn are great! http://tema.ru/eng/travel/pitcairn/

Omg Bligh...

That article on Turkmenistan was awesome. Lebedev does a great job of highlighting the countries!

His take on the U.S. is fascinating too.

>> U.S. citizens must use an arduous “new form implemented on the basis of reciprocity” that has 41 often-intrusive questions.

I got a chuckle out of that. Reciprocity indeed! Apart from the military and charity service question, it sounds like a copy paste of the US' own DS160 form. It does seem to be missing my favorite questions from the DS160 though: 1) are you a terrorist and 2) have you committed genocide?

It's hilarious he would complain when it's simply reciprocity. It's almost like he's clueless that's how many people are treated when trying to visit the US.

I had first hand experience of this in Bolivia when all the American backpackers were complaining they had to pay $100USD to get into Bolivia.

Yes, that's because that's how much it costs Bolivian's to get into the US. Think about how much money that is for these people. Oh.

What is the logic for reciprocity? Isn't it better to treat tourists well, regardless of their own countries' policies? By treating American tourists poorly, do they think those tourists will pressure the US government to relax its border controls?

Just speculating: Maybe making sure that if a discussion about border controls comes up in the US, enough people know how bad it is to go through them themselves and vote against them?

Since when did US populace vote in border controls?

Not directly, but if the population doesn’t want stronger controls, no presidential candidate will pick it up.

What matters is what a sitting president will do. Unfortunately that doesn't correlate very well with what presidential candidates say.

>What is the logic for reciprocity

I don't pretend to know, but I can think of a few possible reasons:

^ Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

^ Educate foreigners about the realities of how their country treats other people (obviously many don't know, even the author of the article is seemingly clueless).

^ Change the policies of their home country (as you suggest).

^ Realize that for an American, $100 is not a lot of money, so it's a good source of revenue in itself.

^ Realize that Bolivia is absolutely, jaw-droppingly stunning, and any American traveling in South America won't let the little $100 fee stop them, because it's clearly worth it.

The citizenship / permanent residency forms are also full of those questions. They seem stupid and ridiculous. But not completely. The logic goes that you if you are terrorist or committed genocide and lied, signed you name under it, they'll have a very quick way to expel or imprison you (or do water). If not for the original problem (terrorism or genocide) but at least for lying about it.

I was having dinner with American colleagues once. We were talking about passports or visas, and I told them about the stupid questions - are you a nazi? Are you a spy?

They didn't believe me until I found a copy of the form on Google images. You literally have to declare you are not a nazi spy to gain entry to the USA. Something not many Americans are aware are of.

Why do you think those questions are stupid?

How many people are still alive could possibly be members of the Nazi party? It hasn't existed for 70 years. That's stupid.

Asking me if I'm a spy? Has anyone ever answered yes?

I just assumed those questions were so that they could charge you for lying later if you did turn out to be a spy/terrorist/etc.

Not sure why that would matter when you're also getting arrested for spying / committing a terrorist act, but whatever.

Right, if you're arrested for spying, hardly seems worth it to throw in a 'lying on visa form' charge as well. Pretty sure you're not going to get another visa if convicted.

I assumed it was easier to force someone to leave because they "lied" on that form than going through the proper process.

My family was searched and questioned crossing into the US from Canada, on our British passports. The American relatives we were visiting were unimpressed.

Yeah, that's my understanding of the reasoning. If someone admits to doing one of those things, the US doesn't let them in. If someone denies it and the US catches them lying, it's one more justification to give them the boot and / or prosecute them.

The Nazi question is still relevant, if barely. There are still a few of them around.

I know you probably seem special, and many people of all nationalities are searched coming over that border. In fact, most of the parties searched on that border are either American or Canadian. They do very thorough random inspections of _everyone_. Once you are flagged in the system there is no way out. I'm sure in the questioning they dug into your background, and they do this with everyone... "Why did you go to Canada, you are an American?" (as if that actually makes any sense) As a further fun anecdote from US land borders, they asked a German friend of mind when he was crossing from Mexico > US via a land border whether he lived in West or East Germany (this was in the early 2000s). They did this to see if he was actually German or travelling on fake papers. lol. The correct answer of course (which he gave) is, "west and east Germany don't exist anymore"

It seemed ridiculous at the time. I was 12, my sister 10 and my brother 6. We'd arrived together in Canada the previous day, so Canadian customs hadn't had any problem with the travel. We had return plane tickets for about 4 weeks later. The border police didn't ask us anything, but questioned my parents and made them empty the car and suitcases.

I've since had the stupid questions. "It says you're going to a science conference. You don't look like a scientist." "Why is your passport empty? Don't Europeans travel a lot?"

another fun fact: Russia requires Australian citizens to write their biography in Russian for Visa application, again it's reciprocity :).

Indeed, I've instantly recognized exactly the questions from US visa application form for Russians.

They are almost certainly question-for-question copy-pastes of US visa forms. I remember the questions about military service details, weapons experience and countries visited from my student visa 15 years ago. (Apparently DS160/DS260 has done away with some of the more pointless questions.)

I don't know how he thinks non US citizens have it easy to go to Russia, I've been there a couple of times and unless things have changed in the last couple of years you need to pre-book and pay for all your accommodation, and get sponsorship letters from each hotel you are staying in. It takes a month or so to process and takes a couple of trips to the Embassy (each of which is an hour or so wait).

If you want to visit friends or relatives then they have to undergo a background and finance check. Not pleasant if they are elderly relatives you are visiting.

When you get to Russia, if you're staying outside of the main centres then you need to register in each town (usually at the police station or post office). Hostels and Hotels really don't like foreigners turning up out of the blue without being on the itinerary.

This is from New Zealand who has a fairly cordial relationship with Russia and (before the current boycott) they are one of the biggest consumers of NZ dairy products.

Anyway good effort by the writer. Some hard and dangerous countries out there. I wonder how the heck he paid for it.

I have New Zealand and Australian passports. I've been to 115 countries.

Russia was a bit painful to get a visa due to bureaucracy. But for me so far Turkmenistan was the most difficult to get into. I still have the really hard ones to go, though.

Which passport is best to travel on? I had a bit of bother with police corruption in northern China when they assumed we were Russians, but the NZ passport magically made it all go away.

I have NZ/AU/DE. In general NZ passports are better than Australian, particularly for many Muslim countries, but also for many other places like India, where NZ'ers get visa on arrival. Inexplicably to my knowledge, the reverse was true a few years ago for Tunisia, where Australians had an easier time than Kiwis.

Re: police corruption in northern China, I suspect that you may have misinterpreted the situation. Documentation checks for foreigners nearing or leaving border regions are standard in China, I live there and have been through tens of them.

No, we were pulled into the police station in Harbin after being set up by a taxi driver, they had a Russian translator there for us. When we pulled out the NZ passports the police officer started yelling at the taxi driver and we were herded out of the station. So it seems fairly clear that it was some sort of setup to try and get Russian tourists (who are potentially used to corruption). Or maybe they just don't like Russian's and pull them in to check them out.

We also had issues crossing the border from Blagoveshensk to Hei Hei, but that was because the officer at the border (and this was all from body language, there were no translators or anything like that) was not convinced that the NZ passports were not fakes, probably they don't see much variety on that particular border crossing.

According to this[1], that would be Finland, Sweden, Germany, and UK.

I remember they used to provide the full list too, but now that seems to be behind a registration process, which I don't wish to go through.

[1] https://www.henleyglobal.com/international-visa-restrictions...

The 2014 list is here: https://www.henleyglobal.com/files/download/hvri/HP%20Visa%2...

How do you manage to travel so much? What is your job, or how do you make money?

I run a software company. A very small software company. Instead of focusing on growing it, I've focused on being able to work part time and remotely.

It's a shame he didn't have to enter the USA as a tourist too. The requirements for Russia seem pretty similar to the hoops I had to jump through when I visited a summer school in Baltimore coming from South America.

Fun fact: I was told to bring to the Embassy interview a photo of my family, because by default it's assumed that I'm planning to remain there illegally, and is my job to convince the employee of the opposite. The photo would prove that I have a reason to come back.

>, because by default it's assumed that I'm planning to remain there illegally, and is my job to convince the employee of the opposite.

The countries that the USA doesn't require hoop jumping are basically 1st-world wealthier nations on par with the United States. (See map.[1]) The countries that are considered "poorer" such as Mexico, etc require Visas because of the assumption that the person wants to establish a better life in the USA. The USA doesn't have to worry about illegal immigration from citizens of Switzerland, Canada, Japan, etc.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program

The ESTA is definitely a curious hoop jump that feels like applying for a visa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Waiver_Program#Electronic...

Yeah that sucks, the US isn't nice to anyone. Although we get a far easier go of it (just need to fill in an online form every couple of years).

I don't know how people transit in say LAX if they are from countries that the US doesn't like. I guess you can't.

You can't. After 911 USA has scrapped airport transfers without passport control, which is pretty unique by world standards.

For example, most of cheaper flights from Mexico to Russia (and rest of the world in general) are via USA. That means USA gets to decide who gets into Mexico and who doesn't.

Transit is different. Because you never leave the transit area of the airport, you aren'"entering" the country. This is why Snowden had to hang out in a transit area of an airport hotel until he could get the paperwork to legally enter Russia.

You may still need a transit visa, but those should be easier to get.

There is no concept of transit/international zone in the U.S.A..

This means passengers, even the ones on transit, must have legal right to enter the U.S..

Going through a U.S. airport just for transit is always a bad idea, as it takes a lot of time to cross the border.

Depends on where you're a tourist from. Coming from Australia, the visa was an auto-approved electronic thing. I arrived in LA, had a queue of about 3 people at customs, had a piece of paper stapled into my passport, and that was ripped out when I exited. The only way it could have been smoother was no visa required at all, or fewer people in the customs queue (not that 3 is something to complain about)

In the middle of my journey, I crossed the border at Nogales for an afternoon's shopping - this was at the peak of 'swine flu' and people scared of the border drug wars, so there were few palefaces (few = my companion and I, no others). Entry into Mexico was literally a turnstile. Entry back into the US? I went to present my passport and was just waved through.

Ironically the only "border trouble" I had in the US was crossing Texas, at a border checkpoint 100 miles inland, where a shouty man screamed at me for daring to have my passport in the trunk of the car... made me pull off to the side and wait for him to finish screaming at other people.

I went to Russia (Moscow and St. Petersburg) in 2002 while living in Finland (I'm a US citizen). My then girlfriend, now wife is a German citizen and arranged the paperwork and I took my documents to the Russian consulate in Helsinki and paid for expedited handling (unease about foreign country and no passport on hand). There wasn't a lot of paperwork at the time.

First couple of nights were in Moscow. Train ride to St. Petersburg, check into the hotel. Take a nap. Phone call -- "Um, your papers expired today." Dumbass that I was, didn't look at the visa the consulate had issued only covered the Moscow portion. This was a Sunday. Monday meant a trip to the St. Petersburg airport and talking with a border official. A nice gentleman in a tweed suit.

A couple of hundred euros handled the issue (we had 4 days left on our trip). Something I will remember. Putin was president at the time as well.

His talent is not just limited to travelling: http://www.blog.sanasecurities.com/stock-talk-with-albert-po...

Here's a Daily Mail link, with photos: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-299015...

Obviously possessed of good genes - and, perhaps, a supply of hair dye - going by the North Korea photo! According to his website, he was there in 2010, at the age of 73.

Saudi Arabia - Been there, done that on a family vacation sponsored by my brother who was posted to the US Embassy. It was a unique experience! My wife had to wear the head-to-toe covering, was not allowed to drive, had to eat in restaurants behind a curtain etc. I have lots of stories. Here's one: We try and pick up artwork in very country we visit but were initially thwarted in Saudi by the "Religious Police". The heavily-armed police saw us coming as my blue-eyed, blond daughter stood out like a sore thumb. They cut us off and told us that we would not be allowed to enter the gallery we were attempting to visit because the owner had tried to allow men and women inside for a show at the same time. They had positioned large curtains around the shop and said that my wife could enter by herself if she desired. We declined.

I've been there on business 3 times in the 2010-2011 timeframe. It is fairly straightforward to get in on a business visa if you have an invitation letter from a company in the Kingdom - in my case one of the local telecom companies.

The one quirk about KSA business visas is that they require not just an invitation letter (which is pretty standard), but Chamber of Commerce approval for said letter, which usually takes forever... which is why the usual approach is to go via an agent, who can magically get the approval in a day or two in exchange for a "facilitation fee" of several hundred dollars. Which was a handy preview of how a country can be both filthy rich (at least if you're in the 1% that has "al Saud" in the family name) and still thoroughly corrupt.

I've been vaguely following the blog called Once Upon a Saga [1], where Torbjørn Pedersen is chronicling his even more ambitious project of visiting every country in the world without flight.

[1] http://www.onceuponasaga.dk/

I think being from an unthreatening country (Denmark) and traveling as a representative of the Red Cross is helping him avoid the distrust, bureaucracy, and corruption that the author of this article encountered.

Graham Hughes from the UK pulled this off a few years ago:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2239087/Graham-Hughe...

I find it odd that he had so much trouble to go to Angola. I have about 5 friends who went there, individually and in different periods of time, in the last decade without much problem. Granted, we are all Brazilians (which I suppose would make things easier [at least linguistically speaking] when going through the whole bureaucracy).

Chris Guillebeau writes/wrote about similar issues. (see this post on getting into Saudi Arabia): http://chrisguillebeau.com/getting-to-saudi-arabia/

I was surprised to see Yemen on this list. It's my understanding that plenty of people came in on tourist visas from 2011-2015, particularly to the island of Soqotra, and getting a visa wasn't a hassle.

That's the only period where it wasn't a hassle. Then everything went to shit at the beginning of this year, and there's nobody to approve visas (even if you wanted to visit Yemen now).

By far the most interesting (and "hardest") country I've visited was Sudan. I should probably write up that story some time (it involved the defense minister's family).

Really? I found it surprisingly easy to get the visa with a US passport here in London. Took maybe 2.5 weeks and zero hassles except just showing up.

$9000 doesn't sound like much more than he would have spent if he had done the hajj. The least expensive package in the link below is basically $8k (there are of course fees).

http://www.hajjpackageusa.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemar...

Is North Korea not that hard to get into? I always assumed it was hard (until recently) because of how often NK is in the (US) news.

Not hard. There are tours you can join.

It's expensive and a bit of pain, but not really difficult. You can go on a guided tour. Actually, it's the only kind of visit you can make, as you might expect.

Irritatingly, a lot of "undercover" "documentaries" about North Korea are merely the reporters taking the tour and filming it.

Of the countries I'd want to visit, USA is probably the hardest. Then again, I'm from Russia and it's considered hard to enter as well.

TUVA OR BUST!

I'm from Ukraine and it's interesting to note that people from first-world countries have trouble getting into third-world countries. Because I certainly have reverse problem: getting into first-world countries, as I have to go through extensive background/finance check, prove accomodation and travel info etc. to get visa. What's even worse: I would like to visit neighboring country for just a couple of days from time to time, but I can't afford this, because visa fee is almost same as ticket price. And longer trips are limited by vacation days.

Anyway, it seems this wall is created on both sides and IMHO, this is sad. We should collaborate, not create barriers between people.

I find it distressing that getting to Eastern Europe would be difficult for me. There are many shrines, monasteries, and associated holy sites that I'd love to visit--not out of mere fascination, but out of genuine devotion (I've already checked Mount Athos off the to-do list, but I want to do it again).

But being an American makes that harder than it probably should be.

Where do you want to go in Eastern Europe?

As an American, it's honestly quite easy to get into almost any country.

Try Iran.

That's why I said "almost" any. Though many of my friends have actually been to Iran and had great things to say.

Iran is easy. The only complication for Americans or British is you need a minder. It's an added expense but pretty straight forward. I totally recommend it. Most people are so friendly it actually starts to become a problem to walk down the street without having to stop every 500 metres to talk to someone who wants to welcome you and ask if you have been to their home town yet, etc, etc. Bring books though. Not much to do at night in Iran ;)

There's a handy map on Wikipedia. You can visit most of Eastern Europe with a visa when you arrive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_United_S...

if Ukraine is like Russia, it's rather easy to get a Schengen multi-visa for a year if you already have a couple of single-entry Schengens in the passport (just don't forget ask for it and collect every possibly required document to please the officials). After that it's only 40 eur a year.

USA should be on that list

Or at least "as an american" added to the title.

Damn!

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