My Keyboard
zyghost.com
zyghost.com
Btw, it looks like the open source project is called Dodohand: https://github.com/dodohand/dodohand?files=1
I've never tried the datahand. I'd love to but, my understanding is that they're super hard to find and very expensive. Also, there's a stigma that goes with weird looking keyboards. I always get comments about mine. People definitely prefer aesthetics over preventing an RSI.
Developers, protect your hands and wrists and get a GOOD keyboard.
Which now made me go look around. Has anyone used this before - Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic keyboard
http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Ergonomic-Keyboard-Business-...
Disclosure: That's not my blog, and I don't own the keyboard. I do use a Microsoft Natural keyboard, which I like.
I'm kind of a stickler about this because my wrists were in pain for a solid 2 years. Sucked so much.
https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heir...
http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Natural-Ergonomic-Keyboard-B...
It feels much less straining to type on compared to a regular laptop keyboard. I got it after I started having RSI and it has worked wonders combined with other treatments
It's a stop gap while I wait for the King's Assembly to hopefully start shipping.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly...
Even for my desktop, I bought a "looks like just like my laptop" ThinkPad USB keyboard with a TrackPoint stick on it.
FWIW, I use vi bindings in everything I can, i3wm so I'm not wasting time dragging windows around, etc., but pragmatically I still use the mouse a lot, and it's too bad that (AFAIK?) none of these prototype/tricked out keyboards address the "okay now lift up your hand and move it 6" over to grab the mouse".
(I know TrackPoint is likely patented, but technically a few other vendors have had similar sticks over the years; maybe they had to license it? Dunno.)
Personally (also an i3wm user), tmux and vim browser plugins makes touching a mouse a rare event in my life.
Moved from a side-by-side monitor setup (laptop + external display) with external keyboard and mouse to an over-under configuration with my external (main) display elevated to eye level and my laptop, which I use primarily for its keyboard and trackpad (less for its display), on the desk.
Using the trackpad has completely alleviated the shoulder pain I used to feel when I was using an external mouse. When I switched, I worried that I'd miss my full numeric keypad. I do not.
And I use ratpoison with vim bindings on everything :)
If they were such a hidrance people could always still buy the keyboard models they abandonded en masse starting 2007.
You mean the ones I keep on seeing on trains and planes?
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/typingclass/id588121234?mt=8
I really freaking hate typing on an iPhone 4s. I frequently hit space instead of a or backspace instead of l or m.
The keyboard isn't always the same and so sometimes I hit . instead of space.
The cheap bluetooth keyboard I bought makes typing very much nicer. That bluetooth keyboard is almost a toy, which is some indication of how terrible iPhone typing experience is.
(On a tangent: a version of that game using the hundred most commonly misspelled English words, or a simple / plain English vocabulary list would be useful. Especially if they software could speak the words at you.)
Sorry, but how does that counter what I said? Parent said that typing on a touchscreen "It is practically impossible".
If you have 157 WPM on iPhone 4s then it's a counter-proof that as I said, it's anything but "practically impossible".
That you "hate it" is another thing, which I can understand. It's not the best experience in the world and obviously sub par to a full keyboard. But it's clearly not "impossible".
And your 157 WPM are for 4s as you said.
iPhone 6, with the larger target area and auto-prediction, makes it even easier, at least for me. And if the new model brings some tactile (force) feedback, that would be even better.
Still, that means I would be even more likely to pay for a spelling / typing game that had more accurate speed tests. I'm not particularly keen on the weapons theme, so some cutesy forrest animals throwing snowballs might work.
Heretic!
Never understood how people find those keyboards usable at all.
Since the split is adjustable, you can experiment with the separation. That should help you decide whether you want to go for a more dramatic ergonomic model.
http://www.fujitsu.com/fts/products/computing/peripheral/acc...
I've looked at the Datahand, but I move around a lot with my laptop, and the Datahand isn't exactly a mobile-friendly solution.
At this point, I want some type of ubiquitous input device, so that I can 'touch type' on any surface and and with my hands and arms at natural angles. In addition, I'd like to be able to naturally interact with my environment as an input device. Google's Soli is the closest that I've seen to what I'm envisioning - http://www.androidcentral.com/google-ataps-soli-opens-world-... / https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Google%E2%80%99s+Soli
FWIW I had the same objection to a fancy stationary keyboard as you, so I ended up designing and building my own tiny travel keyboard: https://github.com/technomancy/atreus
As for the 'cool' aspects of the Soli, I really could care less. (I've never cared about 'cool'/'hip'/'meme' things.)
I simply think the Soli, or other projects like it, will actually open up many, very different avenues to resolve tactile input needs.
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One Concept
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For example, I can envision having something sort of like wrist splints that I could strap to the bottom of my forearms when I expect to be doing a lot of dedicated keyboarding. On the hand-end of the splint would be traditional tactile keys (e.g. Cherry keys). But the 'splints' and their keys wouldn't have any electronics or be functional in the way our current keyboards are. Since the 'splints' won't actually be functional, there won't be wires, which means users can move their arms freely (e.g. put them on a chair's armrests, or drop them to their sides when at a standing desk). Meanwhile, the user's input is tracked by something like the Soli. The 'splint' would be custom printed for each user, and the keys could be affixed in many different ways that would facilitate maximum ergonomic positioning for each individual user's keys and individual users would pick keys that had the tactile feedback the user desires.
Alternatively, for a graphic artist, a similar 'splint' like approach could be taken, but instead of dedicated keys, there may be small ridges, bumps, or indentations to mark important locations (e.g. a horizontal dash for the home keys and indications between keyboard keys) such that they could easily switch between typing and mousing. A setup like this would lack the tactile feedback of physical keys, but would be better suited to mouse or tablet-like drawing.
For those of us that want more functionality, there may be a keystroke or hand-motion that would move, or otherwise minimize, the input pad portion of the 'splint' so that we could pick up a drink or write on a white-board, without having to remove the splints.
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Other Concepts
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But something like the Soli would facilitate many more alternatives. For example, I could custom 3d-print a couple of pads for my thighs (something like a pilot's kneeboard, but not as bulky - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot's_kneeboard). When I'm sitting in a dark auditorium, I could be typing notes to my closed but still powered on device.
Since I expect something like the Soli can easily be packaged in a watch-type form, there are also lower hanging possibilities, such as interacting with public projectors, or having virtual buttons around the house (e.g. when I press the start button on my clothes washer, my Soli-watch automatically starts a timer for me, and alerts me when it's time to move the clothes to the dryer).
And just to be very illustrative, a person could easily 3d print (or mill wood into) DataHand-like blocks, or Atreus blocks ;-), and put Cherry keys in these blocks, then use the Soli to interpret the keystrokes. An option like this is likely to be much more customizable than anything the original article will do. It would be easier to actually construct (e.g. no wiring). And depending on the pricing of the Soli, may end up being cheaper to boot (specifically if the Soli is used in ways beyond just keyboarding input).
In other words, I think the Soli (or other projects like it) will open up input methods you haven't even considered, and optimize ideas which haven't been easy to implement with current technologies.
What a waste of money.
It was impossible to learn how to use. Even the employee who gave me a demo could only type slowly with it. I'm sure some people mastered it, but for me, it just wasn't worth the effort. But it sure looked cool. I wanted so bad to learn how to use it, but I also had to get work done. I ended up selling it on eBay a couple years later to (I think) a Google employee.
I took it apart a few times.
The switches were simple, but novel - optical beam (if memory serves) that broke when you pushed the switch away from the central mount (one "mount" per finger, four side switches one center switch.) If I remember correctly, the switches were magnetic, so that when you relaxed your finger, they'd snap back to the mount.
You could easily 3D print the switches nowadays. The device is a lot simpler than you'd think.
Throw in precision editing, like you might see in vim or emacs, and the need to bang away like a code monkey drops to zero.
vim - precision editing at the speed of thought: https://vimeo.com/53144573
Emacs' Ace Jump: http://emacsrocks.com/e10.html
I tried to use it but it felt unnatural, especially since I have small hands it required some effort to my fingers to hit the north switch. I kept it as it looks very cool but I guess I'll probably sell it since I have no use for it.
More likely though is that you gave up too soon. I know it's hard at first but like most things worth doing it takes practice. Maybe I'm biased by my special situation though.
When buying my Datahand I was very lucky. Someone was selling a pair in Sunnyvale for $30. It was in Dvorak (still is) and I had just decided to switch from SublimeText to vim. So for the next three weeks I plowed through using the Datahand (which was easy) on top of learning a new keyboard layout (which was hard) and all the vim movement/editing commands (which was annoying). It was a big chunk of effort. The hardest part by far was __not cheating and switching back to my normal habits when the going got tough__. If you already know how to accomplish a task and you're trying to learn a new method - it's very, very hard not to fall back to your proven method under the pressure of frustration. I fought that pressure many times over those three weeks but it's been one of the easiest and most rewarding investments. There's always time to save time, and their's always time for your health.
I definitely gave up too soon, but it also wasn't worth me doing it in the first place.
The mild wrist/finger pain/numbness I had went away once I started typing with my forearms in line with my hands i.e., no radial flexion.
It's been on my todo list for a while but the driving force behind it is a stenographer and gets to 200+ wpm- and codes
Blog - http://openstenoproject.org/
Looks like they're close to launching a crowdfunding campaign on - https://www.crowdsupply.com/
Fairly expensive though, so I'd want to try one before parting with cash.
http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-64338-Comfort-Type-Keyboard...
It wasn't the best keyboard, but the keys did seem to fall nicely underneath the natural angle of my wrists. It also didn't have the awkward feeling of a split keyboard.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/To...
As you can see the rule for the left index finger is: 4 R F V, but the keyboard you posted suggests a layout: 6 T F C
The latter layout look appealing, and I wonder why is touch typing using the former rule, since it makes both right and left hand move on a right diagonal instead of right-right, left-left.
At a first glance none of them has any visible advantage.
I want to try the layout from that keyboard[0], but I wonder if it would be a waste of time, since it would take at least a month to obtain a normal typing speed.
[0]:http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71oyo6vGNoL._SL1500_.j...
I’ve only ever tried typing on one for half a day, so don’t take what I say as gospel, but I’ve spent months thinking about keyboard shapes and hand anatomy, and my opinion is that many of the motions used by the Datahand are inherently awkward and slower to repeat or coordinate than the motions required for typing on more standard-ish keyboards. The idea is to use semi-awkward motions, but actuate with a very light touch, so that not much force is required, reducing impact shock. This is great for folks with injuries, but not the best way to optimize for healthy typists.
The standard keyboard does have significant flaws, but these can be solved in better ways, more closely aligned with human hand anatomy. Even on a standard keyboard, it’s possible to type without injury.
Here are some recommendations to help stave off RSI:
(1) Most importantly, keep your wrists as straight as you reasonably can. This is more important than any other aspect of typing technique IMO. Make sure to tilt the keyboard such that the plane of the keys is parallel to the plane of the forearms. Try using a low desk and/or a high chair and bringing the keyboard in close to the body to allow typing with the upper arms hanging down loosely instead of extending outward or forward, and the elbows at a >90° angle, with the wrists and palms floating in the air rather than resting on any surface. (2) Try to type with a springy light touch, and use only a little more force than absolutely necessary to actuate the keyswitches on whatever keyboard you use. If the keyboard is a cheap rubber dome board, and the keys must be mashed down hard to function, get a different keyboard. Mechanical keyswitches are much more comfortable for long-term typing. (3) Take brief breaks from typing every 15–30 minutes and longer breaks from sitting every hour or so. Stand up, stretch, go to the bathroom or get a fresh coffee. Walk around the block and think for a while if you want. Don’t type for 8+ hours/day if you can help it (you probably can unless you’re a data entry clerk or transcriptionist, and those jobs are getting rarer these days). (4) Try to get enough sleep, exercise, eat well, and avoid too much chronic stress.
For someone who wants something better (more efficient and more comfortable) than the standard layout:
(4) Try a split keyboard. An otherwise-standard split keyboard is a good gentle-learning-curve alternative, look up the Matias ErgoPro for the best one currently on the market. If you’re braver, try a Maltron or keyboardio. (5) Change the logical layout, try switching away from QWERTY to a layout that requires less awkward/uncomfortable motions. Most usefully, remap common functions like backspace, return, shift, escape, and arrows to more convenient locations. Add multiple layers and place common symbols and functions near the home row on a layer instead of at the far corner of the keyboard.
I could add a bunch more suggestions, but this comment is long enough for now.
Everyone come ask questions and chat on the Geekhack keyboard ergonomics forum! https://geekhack.org/index.php?board=125.0
As for RSI, there are lots of anecdotes about how to prevent and treat it. I don't think there's anything definitive. I have a large collection of notes: http://thespanishsite.com/public_html/org/ergo/rsi.html
The Fn key is out of the way, making using things like the play/pause controls difficult (I never use them). The escape key is also difficult to hit. And, as expected, I've never used the Paste/Cut/Copy/Undo keys.
It's doubly annoying because the keyboard is almost all that I want, so these obvious, pointless defects are all the more hurtful. I'm not sure it actually wins against a Sculpt.
So far I never had any problems this way but every time I try to work with my fingers on the home row, my wrist and arms immediately tell me to stop. I'm not as fast as a professional typist, but couldn't care less about mere speed as long as I'm comfortable.
This is not the only option to avoid or decrease pain. Like some other commenters said: your body position is important, frequent pauses away from keyboard (good for your eyes too), a smaller keyboard so your mouse is closer to the imaginary center of your body, regular walks or runs are very good (when you walk, don't wear a heavy backpack or coat, so you can move your shoulders properly and relax your core, arms, shoulders and neck even more).
At the end, it's about listening more to your body, I guess. I ignored the symptoms for too long, not knowing what was happening to me. And finally the RSI kicked in. I'm glad I didn't have CTS, but I had to recover for a couple of months and slowly had to build up the time I spent behind mouse and keyboard again.
The Body and Mind approach some other commenter talked about is also important and, I think, at the core of the problem. Relax, don't stress behind your computer and mouse/keyboard. Peace of mind translates directly to a healthier body, in all sorts of ways.
Specifically, do exercises which strengthen your hands, wrists, and arm muscles. In my early twenties my hands and lower arms would get so sore after a day of typing that I could barely move them, with searing pain shooting up my lower arms into my wrists. I knew I had to do something quick so I focused on strength, taking up climbing and water skiing. In less than a year I was pain free & twenty years on I'm still fine.
I know guys who took other approaches like using voice to text dictation, pretty much joining "the keyboard of the month club", using funky mouses, using wrist braces, etc., but never focused on exercise. From my limited sample set, I'm the only one not wearing a wrist brace and who can still type at 100+ WPM with no pain.
Don't underestimate the benefits of strength training when it comes to solving RSI. Of course your millage may vary. I suspect that once you have the first signs of RSI you need to be on top of it before permanent damage occurs, but there's some pretty good science out there which backs up strength training when it comes to mitigating RSI.
At the same time, coincidentally, I switched to cherry Browns. Best. Decision. Ever.
I still have my das at home, and the wasd at the office, but I'm going to have to get a second wasd for home, switching back to the das every evening is too painful.
The other thing that is critical for making mechanical keyboards usable is a foam wrist rest. Even a cheap one from the web without testing will do wonders for mechanical keyboards with their keys set high. (I think the one good thing about the apple keyboards was that they keys were low enough to avoid those things.)
with the wrist lift on the front they allow an entirely natural posture which I've found a big benefit, especially as I have a back condition so a relaxed neutral position is a big win.
It's a shame they seem to be replacing them in favour of a moderner version with chiclet style keys.
MS keyboards are frustrating. Their latest attempt at an ergo had a lot of promise, but they nerfed the function and escape keys to the point of unusabiity. (I know that F-keys are awful, but all of the software I use is addicted to them, so...)
I would pay quite a bit of money for a keyboard that didn't suck.
I just want a vanilla split keyboard with decent key travel. And it looks like I'm going to have to start building keyboards myself to get one.
However, I have found that people not used to the tilted + split-key design style find it weird. And it is a big keyboard.
My personal issue with the 4000 is the worthless "zoom" toggle in the middle. It would be much better as a vertical scroll, or even better as a trackball/nub. Whatever Msft design committee who put the Zoom+Back/Forward buttons should be shot.
I use the for/back buttons to bind all sorts of things (currently "build JS" and "build CSS" on front end side of project), The toggle in the middle I've never found a use for, I played with using it to tab through windows but honestly it's slower to move hands of keys than it is to just map the same functions to keyboard shortcuts.
On linux I have mapped the zoom to scroll/up down in the past but I'm so used to hitting pgup/pgdn it never stuck.
Do you have the experience to say things like this? If you've used good keyboards the Ergo 4000 is just like every other crappy plastic rubber dome keyboard you can buy.
Compare the build quality of the 4000 against say, an ErgoDox (http://jjt.io/assets/media/jjt-ergodox.jpg)
Yeah the key-feel on the 4000 isn't as good as a MX Blue or equiv but it's not significant enough to actually matter and in every other way they are a more comfortable experience.
The ErgoDox costs at least 5 times what a 4000 does so I'm not sure that's a fair comparison you are comparing a VW Polo to a Audi A7.
I probably have high standards. I really tried to use the 4000, on several occasions, but it just felt horrible every time. I had high hopes for it, but something about the key travel kept tripping me up.
Best keyboard I ever used: Knight keyboard on the Lisp Machine. Xerox Alto a very close second (it had some bad layout issues, but the keys were wonderful). And pretty much nothing has captured the feel of IBM Selectric, which is probably good because your office mates would kill you.
But none of those are split. Sigh.
Runner-up: The original Microsoft Ergo keyboard. I know some people who still use these. They usually have them in reserve, in closets. On mine I rewired caps-lock to be another control key (well, you have to muck with conductive traces on the plastic membrane, but it's not hard).
Microsoft hasn't made a great keyboard in over a decade. They're "meh, yeah I can type on that if I have to" and I'll use an Apple chicklet style keyboard over one of them.
The Kenesis Freestyle is pretty decent, though they decided to spend real-estate on some useless special keys for "web" and cut/paste, etc. -- if these had been programmable (or even absent) it would have been a better keyboard.
I just did a quick summary of all the keyboards I've spent significant amounts of time on (probably missed a few), and here they are in decreasing order: Knight (Lisp Machine); Xerox Alto; Digital Group (capacitive, N-key rollover); Microsoft Ergo; Kenesis Freestyle 2; IBM-PC original clacky keyboard; Apple Ergo; VT100; Microsoft Wireless Multimedia; Atari Mega ST (prototype); Apple ADB (several types); ADM-3A; Ohio Scientific; Macbook Pro; LA36; IBM Thinkpad; Data General MV/8000 terminal; Atari ST; Atari Mega ST (production); Kenesis "scooped" keyboard (hands did not fit); Atari 800; Apple II; Apple "chicklet"; VT220 (ick); Microsoft 4000; Many laptop keyboards of no special distinction (Apple / Dell / Asus / ...); IBM 3270 terminal circa 1980; AT&T 3B-1; Various VT100 clones; Dell, Gateway, etc. white-box PC keyboards; TRS-80; Omron (forgot model); Fingerworks (capacitive); Teletype; Atari 400 (membrane); a nameless graphics workstation I will never forget (and wish I could); IBM PC-JR; Vanilla Keypunch (ugh).
Not sure how you think they nerfed the F keys they are all there and in a reasonable position, the F-Lock stuff took a bit of getting used to as I kept hitting it instead of F12 but after a week or so that stopped and now I just don't use it.
Prior to using the Ergo's I was using MX Blue mechanicals so it's not like I came to them from bad keyboards, I had excellent mechanicals but the typing position was just untenable.
Considering how often F-keys are used in Windows applications, I really wonder how much user testing the keyboard group did past "does this look cool?"
I don't actually use them that much beyond Alt-F2 for synapse and Alt-F6 for rename which I've had no issues with.
The escape key is out the way but I can it reliably without thinking, I have large hands so I wonder how people with smaller ones would deal with that, I can hit escape without moving from the default position.
I use a MS Natural Keyboard, but wish to have ergo+mechanicals...
You don't need to go with an expensive keyboard but at least, spend $30 and get yourself a Microsoft Natural keyboard, which is awesome and dirt cheap.
Your wrists will thank you.
Go and try one of those first. I have been touch-typing for years, and the only thing I really, really like in a keyboard in the end is 1) knowing when I pushed a key or not, 2) flat fucking keys with distances between them and short travel.
So you might not like those curvy keyboards at all. I know I don't.
There are plenty of varieties of ergonomic keyboards, pretty sure you will eventually find one you'll like, especially if you give yourself some time to adjust.
And "regular keyboards" are a nightmare. They don't push your finger back when they activate.
I can sure understand where you're coming from, because I too have had the experience of being frustrated with a keyboard to the point where my wrists hurt all the time and I just avoid typing until I get to use something passable.
It's just that what's considered "ergonomic" is tied directly to the usage case. Many people won't find what you found where you looked for it.
Yikes! Needs a bath!