Friends at Work? Not So Much | Hacker News Reader

Friends at Work? Not So Much

nytimes.com

69 pointsprostoalex55 comments

"In 1985, about half of Americans said they had a close friend at work; by 2004, this was true for only 30 percent"

This decline precedes the Uberization of work (where people work more part time gigs with less coworkers around). It even precedes smart phones and being totally mired in watching our social media accounts when we get free time at work, as opposed to interacting with those around us.

I can only speak for myself but at work I feel a little constrained when trying to speak to people in a friendly non-work related manner. Primarily I'm concerned I might offend someone, with an offhand comment or joke. The laws and guidelines in place to protect employees against offensive behavior are a great thing but perhaps I take it too seriously. Perhaps it also affects by ability to make friends and "be myself" at work.

I don't talk to anyone at work, because the workspace is an enormous open bullpen with hundreds of engineers, and talking in such an environment is obnoxious.

I feel similarly, but I also don't want to be friends with my coworkers. I'd rather we keep a friendly, polite distance in our relationships. I love my job, and go to work to actually work: my social interaction comes from elsewhere, on my own terms.

I honestly think this keeps things more productive. There's less room for wasting time socializing, or worrying about people feeling left out, or (like you said) offending people, or anything else that takes time away from work. I've personally seen it happen where relationship concerns ("why won't they talk to me more?") get in the way of people's comfort working together. It's just silly to me. It has no place in the workplace in my mind.

I honestly think this keeps things more productive

So you're just going to ignore the fact that the article notes studies proving the opposite?

or anything else that takes time away from work

How very Calvinist of you.

You spend one third of your day at work, probably half of your conscious hours.

Maybe your workplace shouldn't be a soulless machine dedicated only to cold efficiency and productivity? Just a thought.

>> I honestly think this keeps things more productive > So you're just going to ignore the fact that the article notes studies proving the opposite?

I went back and reread the article. It's just one study as far as I know. This one involving 170 something people in the US: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/72/4/775/

How was it done ? What was the control group ? How did they choose the members ? Are these some college students as in so many psychological studies ? Does it compare to real world companies hiring people that match the company culture and are professional enough to cooperate in most conditions ?

The more I think about it the more it fels very fluffy and hard to take for granted.

> So you're just going to ignore the fact that the article notes studies proving the opposite?

Like another commenter already mentioned, I wasn't very convinced by this one study. I'm friendly and polite with my coworkers, and I take great care to understand what people on my team like and don't like regarding the work they're doing. I use this to make sure I can give people tasks I think they'd like best, and to offer to relieve their stress if they're overburdened with something they don't like.

I'm not their friend, but I care about their well-being and I believe it shows. I'm not convinced there would be productivity gains if I took the relationship further than that. I'd need more evidence.

> Maybe your workplace shouldn't be a soulless machine

It's not soulless. Why attack what I like? I think my work is tons of fun on its own, and entirely "soulful."

That's like saying it's "soulless" for me to run a marathon and not want to be distracted by running with friends who want to chat with me during the run. Running is fun in and of itself, and I'd rather not be distracted so I can get as much joy and fulfillment out of it as possible.

One thing I find a bit weird, and I suspect it started in America (but I'm not sure), is when colleagues pass each other and they say 'how are you?' and keep walking, making it entirely obvious that they're not really interested in how you are. Or maybe they expect some rapid fire response. Not sure. But I think it would be better to just say 'Hi' if you don't intend to stop and actually talk.

Good question. I have wrestled with the same thing.

I have found that the literal interpretation of "How are you?" can be countered with a rough summary of your internal emotional/mental machinery by way of an emphatic grunt or groan. "Meh.", "Woo!", "Ugh." are a few good places to start. Get creative, do some homework.

Remember this is a very basic, mammalian level trait. This is after lizard brain stuff, but before primate brain stuff. We don't need a lot of words for this particular relationship transaction. Have fun with it, but don't stress it. The person asking the question is certainly not stressing it.

It usually seems, to me at least, that the proper and expected response is a mix of "Good!" and/or just returning the "How are you?"

"Meh", "Ugh", and other actual emotions don't seem to fit my idea of what the other person wants to hear. Those invite conversation, or almost hint at asking for a conversation. I don't think that's what the other person usually wants.

I've taken to mechanically translating "how are you?" into an emotionless "hi".

I agree though, it's all very weird. Americans don't seem to just say "hi" very often.

It depends where in the country you are.

In California, where I grew up, it's expected to have a small response:

A: "Hey, how are you?"

B: "Good, and you?"

A: "Good, thanks."

But in the Northeast, you'll stress yourself out trying to actually respond. People will throw it out as you're walking by each other, and if you try to squeeze in a "Good, and you?" they'll be taken aback because they're not really expecting to say anything further. And they're not really waiting to hear any actual response like "Meh" or "Woo".

In Boston and New York, I literally translate "How are you" to "Howdy" in my head. That is, "Howdy" was derived from "How do you do?" but obviously you don't respond "Good" to "Howdy". It's just a synonym for "Hi."

A: "Hi, how are you?"

B: "Hi."

This is an American thing in general, not just a workplace thing. I know that people in other cultures find it quite strange sometimes, and frankly it is when the actual meaning of the words is considered and what their use implies. But it has somehow just become a kind of standard default greeting.

I think it's probably meant to imply a kind of warmness to the person it is directed to, kind of like, "nice to see you," or "I wish you well."

No one expects it to lead to extended conversation when it is used nonchalantly like this. And you're right, it is frequently encountered in situations where one or both parties are in motion. Often in a form like:

A: Hi

B: Hi, how are you?

A:Hi

B:Hi, how are you?

A:Good, thanks!

A:Hi

B:Hi, how are you?

A:smile, nod

A:Hi

B:Hi, how are you?

A:Good, and you?

B:Good, thanks.

I think this is fairly common in languages, that words are used in a way that from their literal meanings you wouldn't expect. Idioms of course, but I think in other ways as well.

Yeah a lot of us do it even if we find it awkward, because we feel it's better than seeming cold and smug. It's also kindof an invitation I guess for real talk in case the other party really has something ready to chew on with you.

It reminds me of the Dilbert where he's telling Catbert how he was confronted with passing someone he barely knows for the second time in a hallway, where he already gave the empty "hey how's it going" the first time not long before. Catbert asks what he did, he says he pulled the fire alarm, because he couldn't think of anything else ("I doubt Mrs. Manners will back you up on that one"). I feel that way sometimes too :)

> Yeah a lot of us do it even if we find it awkward, because we feel it's better than seeming cold and smug.

In what universe is a simple greeting cold and smug?

It seems to me a lot of people are turned off by it. I'd rather just say "hi" myself when I've got nothing, but I notice people stop responding at all (won't even say hi back) when I do that.

So, this universe.

Yep. For this reason, my usual response to "how are you" from somebody passing by is "hi".

The "How are you" or "How's it going?" thing took me a while to get used too. Now sometimes I say "Great" automatically even when somebody asks a real question or says "Hi".

Sometimes it is just a way to tell the other person "I acknowledge your presence." I prefer a smile and/or a nod, a wink.

Yup, this kinda confused me too, but I got used to it and I started doing it too. Now I only say "hi", because I think it's disingenuous to ask someone "how they're doing" when in reality I don't really care. So if I do ask someone "how they're doing" it's a genuine question.

This totally bothered me too, at the beginning. Took me a few weeks to understand that "Hi, how are you" is the American equivalent of "Hey", "Hello", "Good Morning" etc from other countries/culture. It seems rude, but it is just a habit than being intentionally rude. It sure is confusing to foreigners when we move here. But yeah, it would be nice to just say Hi.

Try a response of "Hey, how's it going?" or something similar. I think it works fairly well. If the person actually wants to talk, you can get them started. If they don't, then you don't feel like a schmuck if you gave a real answer that they didn't care about.

"Technology companies like Google and Facebook provide opportunities for shared games, sports, exercise and meals — and research suggests that playing together and eating together are good ways to foster cooperation."

Does anyone else find this sort of stuff very corporate and off-putting? I'm all for hanging out with some coworkers on occasion. I like quite a few of them. But company-sponsored "hang out with your coworkers to foster friendships!" time just seems fake.

In the case of Facebook and Google, they are not "company sponsored events" more like the company provide those facility and opportunities for people who want to do it anyway. For example you can drop by the arcade at Google and play a game of DDR, and if you make some friends there it's all for the best, not unlike the real world outside of work. Same is true for the meals, you absolutely can choose to eat alone with your headphones on, but you can also talk to people.

TL;DR the relationships are by no means shoved down your throat by the company, they just provide an environment that makes it easy.

> Does anyone else find this sort of stuff very corporate and off-putting

No you're not. I refuse to participate in them.

You might not like to work in Japan, then!

That's not really a problem I'll have.

There's a substantial difference between teambuilding work events on work time and putting out a basketball court on campus for employees to use in their off hours. The latter is still a "company provided opportunity for shared games".

Yeah, I'm thinking I may have misread this bit -- giving employees spaces and time to hang out is definitely different from (and better than) the "teambuilding" stuff that seems fake.

No.

For a lot of people who move in from strange places on earth to work at FB/Goog/tech company, making friends is very hard. Hanging out with co-workers has been the primary way for a lot of people I know to have a social life.

I'm a nerdy Asian guy who worked with a predominantly white company and it was very lonely there, because none of the white people want to "hang out with co-workers". However, moving to a larger company really helped me make friends and boost my self esteem. It may be corporatey, but I'm thankful my company atleast cares that much.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of it from that perspective :) I'm glad you found some friends.

Totally awkward and forced, and I'm also totally appreciative of it. Meeting people can be hard, workplace or no. Some of us don't keep the same friends for our entire lives, for reasons that are unique to us and very reasonable.

This is just risk and reward at work. People subconsciously fear the consequences of offending someone in the work place, with very little upside most people prefer to just keep it about work and nothing else.

I know that's how I function. Any new gig I'm in(which happens to be right now), I start in super-professional super-PC mode. As I get to know my surroundings and happen to overhear other conversations and jokes, I get a better idea of the sensitivities of those around me. But yeah, I can totally see people(especially devs) just deciding to only talk work and nothing else and not even try/risk going into the casual social conversations.

I'm too much of a people-person to survive in the workplace without knowing more about people's lives outside of work. I'd get depressed and quit eventually if I couldn't feel relaxed and chatty with people.

It's not even subconscious for me. I have a very small group of friends who know how I feel about most things, and everyone else gets the PC version.

Would you mind elaborating? What kind of views are you talking about?

Haha this. :) Same here, from last job out of ~40, only kept in touch with 3. We meet once a week for coding, gaming, drinking and food.

I think the economic explanation is at the root of this. As they mentioned, long term employment is essentially gone.

In addition, things like pensions are no longer common except in the public sector. Add to that, the rise in cost of living relative to salaries and you end up with a situation where the work place is a very competitive environment.

We are competing with our coworkers for raises and advancement opportunities. Often this competition has an ugly under-belly, as it invariably involves criticism of coworkers' performance and self-promotion of one's own work.

I agree. It depends a lot on the industry and size of the company I think, but in some places it is brutally political. I personally don't even mind a critical and self-promotional environment, it's the quiet, behind the scenes long game politics that bother me. I think it's especially depressing because if everyone stopped undermining each other and worked collaboratively, the shared fruits of your labor would probably make most everyone better off. Except then likely 30% of the staff would be cut because high productivity leads to redundancy.

“It’s not that Americans are less concerned with relationships overall. We’re social creatures outside work, yet the office interaction norm tends to be polite but impersonal. Some people think pleasantries have no place in professional meetings.”

Is this what mean the "keep it professional" clauses in the open source communities code of conducts? Not to "be civil and don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation", but "be impersonal"?

It may not be the intent but it is definitely the outcome.

That's what all the drama around OSS communities have been about lately, haven't it. People that say they want more diversity and inclusion in OSS communities, at the possible price of toning down or neutering certain elements of human culture and interaction. And in effect turning voluntary OSS projects into professional -- in an American sense -- gatherings. How diverse.

I was partly raised in a culture where it was normal for your colleagues / co-workers to know every aspect of your life. In general everything was more communal, and there wasn't a lot of independent loner, do-your-own-thing, dog-eat-dog mentality that is so pervasive in American culture. I'm not even going to discuss the merits / negatives of each particular worldview, but what I do know is that I find it utterly depressing that I've worked and interacted with my (now former) colleagues for close to 3 years and none of them even care enough to ask me what I'm going to do with my life afterwards and what my next plans are (today was my last day).

I know this is just anecdotal, but my experience is quite the opposite. Some of my closest friends are friends I made at work. I was in their weddings.

Sure we drift apart when we no longer work together, because we don't see each other every day, but we're drifting apart from being very close. I'm still just as "in touch" with them as I am with my other friends.

Surprisingly, ctrl+f 'cubicle' gives no matches on NYT or here but it seems like an obvious reason. I can't speak for most of the rest of the world but today's Japanese office for rank and file still tends to look something like [1] - desks pointed inward, arranged so that workers are focused on common areas with low or no partitions. OTOH in the US the ubiquitous cubicles have high partitions and are often arranged around the walls of the space so people are pointed away from each other.

Whether this was done intentionally for some productivity benefits or because workers liked the additional privacy or is just some unintended side effect I have no idea.

[1] https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/gj-3.j...

lol I work in a pretty open "bullpen" as they say. Our desks have glass partitions but they're about 10" tall, and I can totally see the 3 guys I work with all the time. If we're using our standing tables there is no partition lol.

It's kinda distracting, actually. Especially when I've got headphones on and the coworker directly across from me doesn't. When he looks over I cant' tell if he's just looking around the room or giving me the "take your headphones off so I can talk to you" look lol.

Then again he usually tells me this in IM. Gotta love that.

After looking at the japanese floorplan.. I'd actually be totally fine with that.

I work for the State, in a non-competitive and low turnover environment. A lot of people here make friends with their coworkers, but I do notice that the depth of those friendships seem more significant with the older employees; they speak of road trips together, staying at each others' houses, and hijinks that I don't hear nearly as much of (if at all) from younger coworkers. It could just be the amount of time they've worked together, though, that leads to that impression.

I do not relate to this at all. I have a huge network of former coworkers who I keep up with via quick emails and "beers couple times a year" kinds of get togethers. While the work is being done, I'd rather not see them more than I already do, but afterwords, we're like old Army buddies; shared trials and triumphs is a huge thing for normal people. Perhaps Catholic school had some hidden benefits.

Americans have gone on vacation with 6 percent of their closest co-workers, versus 25 percent in Poland and 45 percent in India.

No, the odd ones are the Poles and Indians that are going on vacation with their co-workers....seriously.

Yeah, though I have swung by coworkers homes when visiting a new area where we have no family...

Are you missing the point of the article? According to the author, Poles and Indians consider their co-workers their friends. Americans in general don't. His other point is that Americans used to think differently, so Americans working today would consider people from 30-40 years ago to be odd ones too.

No, you seem to have missed my point. I find it strange that so many percentages of Poles and Indians are going on vacation with their co-workers.

That's a separate thing from "being friends".

Not sure why you are making that distinction. The implication is there. You just don't go on "vacation" with anybody.

There a billion of them and 300 million of you.

You're the odd ones. That's just math.

Oh, cultures and practices that are different to your own are strange to you, are they? You want a cookie for sharing that enlightening piece of information?

"Gladiator, make no friends of gladiators." - from Spartacus.

Has the definition of "friends" changed in 60 years?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com