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Comment by ajross | Hacker News Reader

> at several degrees of removal it's impossible for us to know the difference.

Then maybe we should defer to the people directly involved. I mean, look. If these women say they feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces, is it really such a stretch to believe that it's becuase they actually feel uncomfortable at male-dominated hackerspaces?

There's no harm here. Let them hack where they want to. Our job as the dominant members of the subculture is just to shut up about it and not be thin-skinned nutjobs.

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Compare this example of the ugly American traveler stereotype attitude: Look at those lazy otherpeople who can't be bothered to learn my language to communicate with a visitor like me under my very specific cultural standards they don't even have the civilization to learn about, and look at their dumb clothes, and their wrong beliefs are so stupid and out of date compared to my modern ones from back home, somebody outta clean this dump up wait till tumblr hears about this, why did I come here to visit as a tourist anyway.

No matter how its implemented or who implements it, its always ugly, and frankly not very polite.

I think everyone agrees no matter how uncouth and uncivilized a tourist acts, its not acceptable for the local thugs to intimidate the tourists, two wrongs never make a right. That has to be tempered with endless propaganda of "I visited Mexico, drank the water and got the runs, now everyone must feel sorry for me and join me in the two minutes hate for Mexico" isn't frankly an interesting story. No, I don't have to care.

Another excellent example is how do people respond when they go to the zoo and the elephant exhibit is overflowing with stinky poo? Whats most likely to result in the long run in non-smelly elephant exhibit? Compare and contrast with what feels better on the internet, whats a trendy and popular behavior to lash back?

I'm perfectly happy to shut up about it, not be thin-skinned, and otherwise ignore them. However, given the persistent media coverage and other awareness-raising campaigns or requests for resources, I suspect that to not be the attitude desired of me.

The problem is not that some women say that they're uncomfortable in existing hacker spaces. The problem is that they scream "misogyny" at the slightest offense. Maybe the guy was just an asshole, non-discriminately? Maybe he was trying to (awkwardly) seduce her (some people would say that's sexism as well, but in reality it's just being a heterosexual - it's more than probable that the same guy would try to seduce men if he was gay)?

Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone. Try a bar. To tell women that by being in public they have to accept endless random seduction attempts is a giant part of the problem.

Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not.

> Hackspaces are supposed to be safe spaces to do work, you aren't there for flirting/socialzing/picking-a-mate. There, like work, it is inappropriate to be trying to "seduce" someone.

Well, then I imagine hack spaces a bit differently. For me, anything I do in my free time isn't work, it's fun. Socializing. And a natural part of socializing is forming relationships. Friendships, romantic relationships, ... In any case, I'd consider it much preferable to try and meet a soulmate at a common hobby, rather than at a bar. Applies to everyone, not just women, of course.

> Also gay guys usually don't just hit on everyone because at least they usually have the grace to know when it's appropriate and when it's not and also when it might be reciprocal (wanted) and when not.

That's quite a generalization, a pretty offensive at that. Obviously, straight guys are all scary and creepy, while gay guys are nice and tender and soft!

Most women don't want to deal with your desire for a "romantic relationship" though.

>Then maybe we should defer to the people directly involved.

Small correction: person involved. You rarely get to hear the others' opinion or viewpoint on the matter.

Which brings us back to "they're possibly interpreting a friendly tone as a condescending tone". Of course they'll feel unsafe when they see danger everywhere because they've conditioned themselves to be victims and everyone else a possible aggressor. Or maybe the other person is an asshole and they are 100% verified. Without seeing it happen or having an unbiased viewpoint there is no way to know for sure.

Deferring to a possibly biased viewpoint is not the answer. Here's why:

I keep the door open for absolutely everyone if they're within 8-10ft of the door without discrimination of age, sex, gender, religion, sexual orientation, height, weight, body shape, deformities, mental ability, physical ability, which direction they are walking, whether they are wearing socks with sandals or slippers, if they are accompanied by someone else or alone, or any other reason you could possibly think of to discriminate against holding the door open for someone.

All it takes is a single woman thinking I'm being chivalrous (which is now "benevolent sexism") to hate me for all of eternity because I'm a sexist misogynist because I happened to hold the door open for her and her cognitive bias and victim mentality instantly believes I only held the door open for her because she's a woman!

Would you accept her biased and negative viewpoint at face value? Rhetorical question: you've already stated your belief that we should defer to the person involved. Which turns her into a victim and me into a sexist. For no reason

Now, I could stop holding doors open for everyone, but I know I would eventually get flak for not holding a door open for a woman and she'll assume I didn't hold the door open for her because of her gender.

I'll await an article in coming years with the following complaint:

"This hackerspace is unfriendly, nobody is willing to help me or share information. People keep to themselves and don't socialize at all. Can't they see I'm having troubles soldering these wires together? Its no wonder women don't want to be here. Everyone's a coldhearted asshole."

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