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Comment by aantix | Hacker News Reader

$300K, taxed as a bonus after 4 years of working at below market wages? All of those life experiences they could have had in those four years forgone to.. eventually break even.

Tom Preston-Werner is a great developer, probably world class. And he was offered a whopping 300K bonus by a company that earns $220K+ profit per employee annually (with a disproportionate amount of value created by the software engineers).

Lots of opportunity cost, gone. How do we offload this risk to the investors? Demand what you're worth. Take money off the table upfront.

Lesson to the Hacker News readers; you're not going to get rich by being an employee. Start your own company if you want any sort of chance of becoming rich. Otherwise forget the extra hours, live a balanced life, play with your kids, love your /(boy|girl)friend/ or spouse.

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"you're not going to get rich by being an employee"

I disagree. If you're looking at every little startup idea, then yes...you probably won't get rich. Also, you won't get as rich as the founders; however, I have plenty of friends in the industry who have made millions (the typical goog, fbook, yada yada). I think a better suggestion is to shake out the idea before jumping on. I've made poor choices money-wise and I've made great choices in the past (very similar to equity investing)...

"Otherwise forget the extra hours"...

I think there's something in between. As a founder, it's a ridiculous amount of hours / extra stress, etc. Or you can work as an employee and give some extra but still realize it's a job and you aren't a founder. You don't have to work 80 - 100 hour weeks simply because you're at a startup. It's a pendulum with being a founder on one end and being a checked out employee at megacorp on the other. You can work tons of hours at a megacorp (mckinsey, etc.) or.. you can work a reasonable number of hours at a startup.

92% of startups fail. For most, it's not going to turn out pretty.

Apparently your friends are incredibly good at choosing startups; they should be VCs.

"92% of startups fail. For most, it's not going to turn out pretty."

And if you're a founder you have those same odds, no? With more skin in the game, being a founder in those cases is probably even worse, too.

I think all I'm suggesting is in the risk-reward decision, it's more complex and subtle than just go be a founder if you're going to do the startup thing as that's the _only_ way it's worth it.

"Apparently your friends are incredibly good at choosing startups; they should be VCs."

Some of them are; however, some are relatively happy going from startup to startup (fairly early) getting things done. I'm sure some of those will hit well and others won't.

I don't think it is the same odds. The number of startups in which employee 500 gets rich is vanishingly small. The number in which employee 3 gets rich is higher. On the other hand, you'd need 500/3 such startups to counter the first kind. I don't know what the actual numbers are.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply employee 500. Employee #10, for example or even employee #50 could still do substantially well (similar to what you allude to in saying "the number in which employee 3 gets rich is higher")

Out of curiosity, 92% of startups that reach what stage? Seed funding, series A, series B, etc.?

edit:

It's companies that are picked by YC

http://josephwalla.com/attrition-is-a-group-statistic-it-don...

I disagree as well.

You can get single digit millions rich (which is "rich" to most of America, though obviously not SV or NYC rich) by being frugal, saving and investing

Most people don't have the discipline though.

You could become a millionaire this way but why? You have a pile of money and then you still end up dead.

When you live frugally, you're constrained. There's a max to how much you can save. Furthermore, while you're saving, life passes you by. Opportunity costs.

Who wants to go on a dream vacation when they're in their 60's just to have their hips hurt and their spouse in similar shape? How can we have the dream vacation now and have a pile of savings?

It's better to leverage the upside; figure out how do I significantly increase your income right now. Not increase your income on a probably acquisition 2,3,4 years from now, but increase your income right now.

Well said.

The average person (American, anyway) has no financial discipline and will spend every dime they make, and then some. If they simply "increase their income" without the fundamental ability to save / invest, they won't get anywhere long term.

BTW, I'm very good at increasing my income. I usually bring home an extra $2K to $3K a month on top of my day job, and am always looking at ways to grow this.

>they won't get anywhere long term

Where are they trying to go? We all die. And we can't take it with us. At our deaths, any balance left that is greater than zero is an experience that we robbed ourselves of.

Retirement? Do you want to enjoy your old age, or continue working into your 60's and 70's? Would you rather make working a choice than an obligation? Plan ahead.

What is the likely hood that I will live past 60?

Pretty high. Anywhere in the west life expectancy is approaching 80 and beyond.

I don't understand the idea of living so frugal that you don't get to enjoy life just so that you have some money left over when you die. Get rich slow doesn't really make much sense when there is a very good chance I will die before I retire.

Better than the 8k I got as a later hire in a startup. We actually got acquired, which is the biggest part of the battle. I took probably 20k less per year than I should have and ended up with enough equity to buy an early 2000's Honda Civic. You're not going to get rich as an employee.

Same here. We were acquired and surprise! We got to keep our jobs and if we stuck we'd receive enough shares that basically amounted to $30K at market value.

Acquisitions are rare events (given that 92% of the startups fold). And acquisition where employees actually make out enough to recoup their lost wages, even rarer.

Employee beware.

- "Otherwise forget the extra hours, live a balanced life, play with your kids, love your /(boy|girl)friend/ or spouse."

Couldn't agree more. I've done startups and learnt a lot, they got me to where I am today. Now I've found a corporate place that doesn't take away from my personal life. Couldn't be happier.

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