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Comment by codezero | Hacker News Reader

Does anyone have links to audio samples where these differences are prominent?

In addition to comments, this video has a decent comparison using sawtooth tones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRlp-OH0OEA

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I went looking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBt6APk21tU

Thank you. That is astounding. I wonder if there is any way to find music performed using original tunings. It sounds SO much better to me.

I know, it's amazing. Each example had my mouth agape.

For me, the closest analogy would be watching Japanese movies and TV shows being able to understand their original language as opposed to relying on subtitles or dubs; there's a whole dimension of nuance I was missing before I learned the language.

Yes. In return, while learning about this I found this great explanation:

http://contentspiano.blogspot.com/2006/02/pythagorean-equal-...

You can listen to barbershop music if you want to hear justly tuned chords. Just don't get too obsessed with it unless you want equal-tempered music (i.e. almost all recorded music) to sound just a bit wrong. YouTube videos are hard to come by, but I posted two examples in this thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10145785

And another clip I uploaded of using pitch-detecting software on a studio recording (notice it detects a lot more than 4 simultaneous notes, because it's "hearing" overtones):

http://youtu.be/v7kHnEaGIfg

Look for recordings using the terms "period instruments", "historically informed performance" (HIP), or "early music". There are several ensembles, both orchestral and choral, that perform music in a historically informed way. Check out one list here: http://musicmoz.org/Styles/Classical/Occidental/Periods/Earl...

That list is a start, but it's over ten years old now and leaves out a lot of world-class groups. We're actually right in the middle of a golden age of early music performance. I sing professionally with several period instrument groups: American Bach Soloists, Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra, Bach Collegium San Diego, and others.

The first two groups I just listed are in the Bay Area, btw, so concerts are readily accessible to readers in Silicon Valley.

Hearing Chopin in Meantone is pretty awesome.

for one of my digital pianos (Yamaha), there's options for these (besides ET):

- pure major/minor

- pythagorean

- mean tone

- werckmeister/kirnberger, which i've heard mentioned as a good option for acoustic pianos a few times (i suppose i should try it)

For any besides ET, you have to specify the root/base note.

I think my synths have these options as well, so if you know anybody that has one, you can try it yourself. I think for string instruments, a few cents difference is pretty audible, but not so much for, say clarinet which doesn't have the sharp transients, unless you're playing above the treble clef staff. and then when you hit a track with overdrive/distortion, reverb and delay, it becomes very hard to discern differences.

Wendy Carlos released a 2nd version of her Bach Brandenberg Concertos that were done using period tuning on synthesizers including modulations. perhaps you can compare the two.

Do you mean "Switched-On Brandenburgs: The Complete Concertos Vol. 1"?

Wouldn't that be nice, rather than whining about numbers?

It's an informative article, but the reality is that nobody cares. And I mean "nobody" in the approximate sense of 99.9% of music listeners. The reality is that our brains are more than happy to glue these nasty thirds to their hypothetical frequencies. Sure, they have a little roughness to them, but it's not a big deal, especially considering that most piano music from the 18th and 19th century is composed not to highlight the weaknesses of temperaments.

Also, equal temperament isn't quite the final word on piano tuning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning

To make matters worse, or maybe better, most non keyboard instruments have no sensible temperament whatsoever. Even fretted instruments are a compromise.

Most non keyboard instruments have ways to adjust the pitch slightly per interval while playing, allowing experienced players to play all intervals perfectly.

Yes. I played flute as a kid, and I remember C-sharp in particular as being troublesome. Today I play double bass, and of course intonation is a significant factor in technique. Also, good players will push the notes up and down for effect.

I've seen some crazy guitar fretboards that try to make up for this, with really jagged frets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRsSjh5TTqI

It's probably true that 99.9% of music listeners don't know, don't care, and can't tell the difference. But a few of us care a lot, and it's sometimes very important. I've been recently obsessed with barbershop quartet music, where the tuning of chords is absolutely pivotal. The alignment of overtones from justly tuned chords is, if you ask me, the entire point of the genre. The "ringing" produced from the aligned overtones is, I would guess, noticeable to a large portion of people with rudimentary music education.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbershop_music#Ringing_cho...

Two examples of fairly audible ringing (probably start a little before my timestamps to get a little context):

http://youtu.be/KpBRetTqnqQ at 3:07

http://youtu.be/z9L4QEptVRo at 4:23

You make a good counterpoint, for barbershop. It's definitely a form designed to bring out the effect of these microintervalic adjustments. Of course, those cords are sung in just intonation, not well temperament :)

I probably could have phrased my comment a little bit more delicately, but my point was in reaction to the article, not the overall concept of tunings and temperaments. What drives me nuts are these "you're doing it all wrong" types articles about something that really makes very little difference to most people. Especially this one, in which the author really didn't bother to provide any auditory demonstration of a purely auditory phenomenon.

I get what you're saying. I'm a classically trained pianist (and this may be the problem) who has recently taken up the cello. When I'm tuning my instrument, a note on an open string appears to my tuner to easily fluctuate by 4-6 cents. (That is +/- ~2-3 cents.) The article mentions that the tunings often vary by just about this amount. (Some were larger, but many were not.) My ear certainly doesn't hear the fluctuation in pitch that much, and I'm trained (spent 2 years in music school at the university level, had honors theory). When I'm fingering a note, it can vary by even more, even when I don't think I'm moving my finger at all. It seems to me that typical listeners would have a hard time discerning those differences, though I suppose the differences are amplified when played with other notes.

    in the approximate sense of 99.9% of music listeners.

The best thing about the Internet is that connects the other .1% that actually care, and the rest of humanity that has no appreciation of good music can ignore it. And really, the great composers of the future will be part of that tiny minority.

Seriously though, it would be amazing to have mainstream acceptance and performance of classical works in their intended tunings. That would be cool. Half the stuff just doesn't sound right in equal temperament.

I wouldn't call it "no appreciation of good music". The minutiae of a specific genre/era of music is a niche interest even among musicians. Doesn't mean it's not interesting, but it's definitely a niche.

>It's an informative article, but the reality is that nobody cares. And I mean "nobody" in the approximate sense of 99.9% of music listeners.

The article, like everything else in life, is for those who do care.

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