Windows 10 users are being banned from torrent sites
irishexaminer.com
irishexaminer.com
That's the way I'll opt out. Not by changing my SSID.
Sharing your password via word-of-mouth gives your friend your password and access to your network and the ability to share it further.
I guarantee that someone will create a tool to get wi-fi passwords shared to them if there isn't one already.
The status quo is that your password is already stored on their computer with nothing better than reversible encryption.
And what if I don't want my password to be stored on Microsoft servers where it can be accidentally leaked, stolen, handed to security agencies, and so on?
Are you sure? Does "netsh wlan profile SSID-Name key=clear" not show it after you've connected?
less, or just none (e.g. the claim about data being sent from local disk)? In any case this is turning to be far from ideal for MS and makes me wonder if they really didn't see this coming when defaulting to not-so-private defaults: I already know people asking 'I heard this new Windows sends all your data to Microsoft, is that true?' because they picked up something vague about privacy in the local newspaper..
Strange how things turn out.
That's weird. Physical property rights are very different to Intellectual Property Rights (copyright, patent, trademark).
IPR can lead you to absurd conclusions: I own a DVD, and copy data to it, and the data is under copyright, the DVD now belongs to 2 different parties ?!
Or, if I develop a widget, and manufacture it, it can somehow violate a patent and I now owe them large sums of money... or the patent holder can use the customers that purchased them?!
Or I grow crops on my field using seed stock form our family. And Monsanto patented plants' spores cross-pollinate into your field. Now, you either are required to destroy your seed stock because of genetic pollution, buy Monsanto seed, or lose your farm. Yet again, IPR removes rights from property holders.
So yes, you may take property rights seriously. But IPR leads to insane conclusions and absurd reasoning. IPR exists to take physical property rights away from you.
1. The DVD example: if the data is under copyright and you do not own the rights, you cannot legally copy it (except for fair use etc. exceptions). The data on the DVD is an illegal copy, but it does not mean the rights holder owns the DVD itself.
2. You do not owe anyone anything for infringing a patent unless it is asserted. If it is asserted, then it's something you negotiate with the patent holder or go to court over it. It's no different from when people accidentally develop things on somebody else's land. I don't see what's absurd about that.
3. Accidental cross-pollination only ever results in negligible fractions of fields being covered with patented genes. If you look at the history of Monsanto lawsuits, each and every defendant was proven to have deliberately cross-pollinated their fields (e.g. Bowman had 80% plus of his field covered, and it was undeniably non-accidental). So the concern of having to destroy any significant part of your seed stock is purely theoretical.
It is extremely naive to think that if MS tells you in the EULA that many services in the OS work based on the user behavior suddenly opens up new doors for spying. If MS wanted to spy on you, they could have done that already (they might or might not, I don't know, but it's certainly not the EULA that prevents them from doing that).
/snarky comment:
I guess most people on the torrent sites already give full permissions to the torchlight app on their phone.
Microsoft has already admitted in its "privacy" policy that it can and will do such thing:
> “We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), --- when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to ---.” [1]
I mean - are you kidding me? Like "whenever we'll feel like it"? That's so reassuring that you respect your customers's privacy, Microsoft...Really solid privacy policy right there.
[1] - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/30/windows-10-privac...
> comply with applicable law or respond to valid legal process, including from law enforcement or other government agencies;
> protect our customers, for example to prevent spam or attempts to defraud users of the services, or to help prevent the loss of life or serious injury of anyone;
> operate and maintain the security of our services, including to prevent or stop an attack on our computer systems or networks; or
> protect the rights or property of Microsoft, including enforcing the terms governing the use of the services - however, if we receive information indicating that someone is using our services to traffic in stolen intellectual or physical property of Microsoft, we will not inspect a customer's private content ourselves, but we may refer the matter to law enforcement.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.asp...
Additionally, the privacy policy section you and I are quoting applies to many Microsoft services, including, for example, OneDrive. Otherwise, the "private folder" data they're talking about could only be whatever bits and scraps telemetry and Windows Defender picks up, based on my reading.
That seems perfectly reasonable and also confirms they won't be sending any of your data to the MPAA.
No that's not , and what is shocking is that you find it "perfectly reasonable".
You can find the essentially same four points on everything from Ubuntu to Wikimedia.
Can you be more specific about which part of it you find particularly unreasonable? Can you explain how the claims that the privacy policy allows MS to share data with the MPAA are founded?
You no longer have the option not to disclose something because anything that shows up on the PC may be fair game. Privacy is all about controlling who gets to see what information. Windows 10, being an OS, removes your ability to control what is shared in any meaningful way with its privacy policy.
Not just on the machine.
It can scan the whole local network, understanding about LAN, devices, services, all of which could be hard to reach from WAN.
The MPAA could be a Microsoft "customer" that needs protection from piracy. The MPAA could run a service with Microsoft that needs protection from being "defrauded". There are holes in the policy large enough to drive a fleet of buses through.
If your argument is that they could implement such a capability, that's always been true for any OS, including free operating systems, unless you audit the code and compile it yourself.
Haven't they in the past done exactly this in order to do people a favour by removing certain malware via windows update?
>we may access, disclose and preserve your personal information, including your private content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or ______files in private folders______), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary...
I understand that you'd have to do a full code audit of every application that has permissions to read files off your local disks to ensure this wasn't already being done by someone, but at least as a Linux user, I'm not used to software openly expressing its intent to feed private files off to any like-minded entity that asks for them. Definitely a red flag for me.
The quoted section is from the privacy header which also applies to Onedrive, which is essentially Microsoft's version of Dropbox.
They're not stating their intent to collect files in private folders on your computer aside from bits that have always been collected, like whatever parts of a crash dump Error Reporting sends on.
>It applies to Bing, Cortana, MSN, Office, OneDrive, Outlook.com, Skype, ___Windows___, Xbox and other Microsoft services that display this statement.
It appears that you're making an assumption that they only intend this to apply to OneDrive, but they explicitly state it applies to Windows too. My Linux installation definitely didn't come with such boilerplate.
Furthermore, if you actually bothered to read the damn Microsoft TOS rather than seance over the tea leaves of copypasta confetti, you would see that this is clearly in the context of the cloud services that can be enabled in Windows 10, not Windows 10 as a whole.
I absolutely agree, but I don't see why Android users would be a minority -- I don't know the latest numbers but I guess there are more Android users already than Windows (10) users.
And just to nitpick, we had to change our patching policy at work considering how badly QA has fallen under Nadella's watch. Pretty much every patch Tuesday is a problem for us. There's always a rotten patch that breaks something. I also am unimpressed by all the marketing surrounding the start menu coming back. Its barely a start menu, its just a panel to stick Metro-style widgets onto. The default widgets are a lot junk. The Win7 defaults of Documents, Computer, Control Panel, Printers, etc was near perfect from a productivity perspective.
Unless TPP passes[1]. One of it's provisions may result in a weakening of privacy laws. Unfortunately it's hard to tell since the whole thing is secret.
[1] http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/07/16/TPP-and-Personal-Data/
If there's enough pressure for MS to respond, they'll spew some bullshit to placate the masses. What they won't do is change their spying ways.
Besides, it's probably not even all Microsoft's fault. I bet governments are pressuring them to spy on us on their behalf.
What kind of response do you expect from them?
The phoning home isn't new, is it? Licensing validation was done every few months on Windows 7.
The only thing Microsoft is guilty of SO FAR that I'm aware of, is providing slightly better transparency over the data it sends to its' and third parties' servers, and now they're getting called out for it.
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w...
To my point of view this is a endless game of cat-and-mice... finding the (changing?) telematics FQDNs and updating the hosts file. By design this cannot be a permanent solution.
[1] http://news.softpedia.com/news/blocking-these-domains-stops-...
[1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w...
Decompile dnsapi.dll, remove all hardcoded hosts, replace and protect to a nonexistent group so that windows can’t even override it during an upgrade.
UI: KDE especially has very good touch screen support, including a thing that automatically changes system UI when you connect a mouse, or keyboard, or so on, and switches between phone style, tablet style, desktop with touch, and desktop style on the fly. (Essentially Microsoft’s Continuum) Since 2012.
I used KDE Plasma Active on my Nexus 7 for some time, actually.
Are you going to verify that there isn't a new backdoor in every single update that works around your changes? Or are you going to bypass that impossible task by not installing any future security updates?
Workarounds that try to make a hostile OS "safe" is doomed always having to play catch-up, and Microsoft can probably add problems faster than you can find them.
How would they ban Windows 10 users from trackers? A bit of more details wouldnt be bad.
Here's a random example of user agent detection http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163350/server-side-brows...
I’m not sure but I think µTorrent on Windows also listens on the Toredo provided IPv6 address.
It means Microsoft losing market share to Apple when people tell their friends that they can't download the latest episode of the Kardashians if they upgrade to Windows 10.
1) turned off everything in the Customization section at install
2) Used http://pxc-coding.com/portfolio/donotspy10/
3) Used https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking
Then, I installed a traffic monitoring tool - and surprise surprise - I still found some stuff trying to randomly connect to Microsoft's servers, similarly to what Peter Bright from Ars discovered (btw, "telemetry" can only be fully disabled on Enterprise version of Windows 10):
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-w...
I blocked those, too, and for now the Windows 10 spying monster seems to have settled down - BUT - new story points to the fact that you won't even know what Windows 10 updates will do in the future. That means that on machines where they see they can't spy on you anymore, they could push an update to bypass those protections and still spy on you.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/21/microsoft_will_expla...
Windows 10 really seems to be designed based on an NSA/law enforcement's wishlist. Any security or privacy measures you might take on it can be rendered useless by an update, and some articles even say Microsoft gets all of your typed keys (so all passwords).
http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
When I find some time these days, I'll wipe Windows 10 and never look back.
I dont normally like to go meta and talk about voting, but this is the worst example I have probably ever seen.
This one looks interesting but I'd be wary of using it unless source code was available.
The site it is hosted on doesn't appear to have much in the way of info about the author or anything either.
So, there's plenty of checklists out there, but none of them is actually useful at the moment.
I have no use for Cortana, so for me, it's nothing more than an annoyance to be disabled. But for others, it might be the one reason why they upgraded to Windows 10. Likewise, some tutorials out there advocate disabling Windows Defender, but I consider (at least some parts of) Windows Defender to be a legitimate feature.
I'm trying out Windows 10 in a VM, and so far I've managed to disable: everything in the privacy control panel, advertising ID in Edge, Cortana, OneDrive, web search from the taskbar, feedback, telemetry, and the half-crippled Start menu. Now it's just a slightly faster and flatter Windows 7. I'm not sure if I'll ever let it out of the hypervisor though.
Game companies have been issuing updates that stop users "playing counterfeit games" ever since it was possible to do so. Microsoft is a game company, or one of the divisions are. It's interesting that they would stop there, rather than say "use of counterfeit software". That would be much broader.
Microsoft has been doing that for some time so what is the justification for gamers all of a sudden freaking out.
It's part of what happens when you have an OS that runs on different types of device, which is the aim for Windows 10.
I only need Windows now if I want to play a game, but the consoles at home, and steam under crouton/linux/osx solves that for some of the games I play.
Nothing else really!
So in response, torrent sources help them by stoping them from downloading...
So torrent sites are giving MS what they want?
Any news on if this has changed?
Although his writing style isn't always consistent, the book is totally worth reading just to get a clue on how 'cyber criminals' (used to) operate on a global scale. I said 'used to' because the facts narrated in the book occurred mainly in 2009-2011, but in the final chapter there is also some recent events.
Although the title refers to the spam problem, It's not just about spam itself, but it gives a full image of the surrounding cybercrime environment. Give it a try ;)
This is not some unfounded fear this is pretty much the current reality. Anyone who doesn't agree lives in a Pre-Snowden fictional world.
The 90s called and would like to have their hatred back.
As for privacy issues in your recommendation -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_%28user_interface%29#Pri...
So, 1.
I was trying to point out, that even when you disable everything using the provided controls, the OS still doesn't respect your choice.
Be careful regarding the searchui.exe firewall rule. It names specific assembly version - one silent update (is there any other in win10?) and your rule is invalid, instead a new rule that is enabled is suddenly in effect.
> None of Ubuntu's official derivatives (Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, etc.) include the feature or any variation of it.
Ubuntu it's not the only distro out there, you also got Linux Mint and ElementaryOS for beginners.
At the end of the day, most of the technical users know how to stay protected. Atleast the type of people who can install a linux distro on their main computer.
It's kind of our fault, we need to make the general public understand these risks, we need to make solutions more accessible. Because, if this sort of thing continue, we would one day suddenly wake up to a world that would not respect anyone's privacy. How many big companies are caught violating user's privacy, remember superfish?
The funny thing is, big companies are starting to be more and more confident violating their user's privacy.
http://www.hakspek.com/security/updates-make-windows-7-and-8...
All you have to do is add a significant user base, say 5-10% of the market and it will be competitive with Mac and I am sure there will be lots more commercial software for it.
I would also like to mention that my sister is a total computer dummy. Her computer always gets infected with malware and lots of it. But I installed Linux on it because I did not have a Windows install disk. And she loves it because it doesn't get malware anymore. And she loves the fact that she can install free software using Ubuntu's software center. That's a true story.
A year or so later, they both use Mac. In both cases, the inevitable question came "so I bought this <peripheral/software>, how can I get it to work?".
When they want some hw or sw, they ask what would I recommend. They realize that they know nothing about it and do not want to buy some crap.
You mean "window manager", right? Why would depend on a specific WM unless you were writing a WM-specific utility where no decision would be necessary? Your application only needs to target X11, which is implicit when you use a pre-existing toolkit.
> audio devices
What audio devices? Just write to the default ALSA device. Better yet, delegate the problem by linking to something like OpenAL.
I'm sure there are edge that are more complicated to port, but that is true for any OS. For most apps, porting shouldn't be particularly difficult.
But making sure that it runs under a sufficiently large number of distributions/versions of distribution is under GNU/Linux.
Of course it's complicated, more complicated than Windows, depending on your type of program. But seeing how Valve made it work for games, I think it's going to be seen more and more.
I guess it depends on how many dependencies you're relying on and on what those dependencies are, but the process is pretty smooth.
If they manage to develop things for Android, it can be done for Linux, too.
(Source: developed and packaged a commercially-distributed Linux application. Not too painful a process.)
All I run natively is MS office stuff, chrome/ff, and vpn/vnc/ssh remote access type stuff. I have a linux desktop box on my desk running all the remote stuff plus native emacs that I use for most real work, the little old MS box is just for opening Excel sheets and legacy Word docs occasionally.
Its been a long time since I've run a non-MS (and non-chrome non-FF) binary on a MS desktop at work. Many years at least. The future is the web not native apps. IT will no longer deploy native client apps as a policy, so its not like any are officially ever coming back.
Decades ago its amusing to recall how much work IT folks had to do to install dozens of 3rd party applications on desktops before we'd get to use them. We had multipage checkbox forms. Now its "office, FF and chrome" and some corporate secret sauce (corporate anti-virus whatever type stuff) and they're done. A more draconian employer would just install office and force minions to use MSIE. And google docs and competitors are taking over all non-corporate "productivity app" work. With web access and outlook web mail and free viewers, technically most worker drones don't need anything more than a MSIE bootloader, although its more humane to let people use FF / Chrome.
For most employees, if it boots and runs FF or chrome, that's all they use to earn their pay, so no difference if MS, linux, freebsd, or mac.
So far I can assure you: Compared to my Android phone Windows 10 is absolutely mute. There're no noticeable differences compared to Windows 7.
You seem to be more driven by your hatred towards Microsoft than by real privacy concerns.
Google started engineering features that were supposedly opt-in but they were so convenient that most people opted in anyway. Google forced people to divulge their data, for instance location, for navigation. It did not actually need the level of data it collects to provide navigation, it was just a way to steal their location privacy to increase its marketing reach and to improve the service not necessarily for the user but for its own business needs. How long before Microsoft starts employing the same tactics. You know you have a choice but it's a totally false choice!
Not that I'm saying Windows is good mind you. My personal preference would be OSX, which you can view as Windows with a better underlying OS or Unix with a decent UI. Either way it's a win.
Seeing as you're an OS X fan I'm going to link you to this HN thread so we can go ahead and stop pretending that trash OS "just works":
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10010395
As far as OSS interfaces go, I wouldn't be surprised if you're using an open source browser right now, seeing as the closed source alternatives don't compare.
Windows has nothing to show for the billions of dollars put into it. Every installation of windows I've ever had was a piece of crap that got bugged out after a months use. It would be snappy at first and then it would start taking five minutes to boot, then when it did boot the whole OS would choke as soon as I opened the start menu. Then you have to give it a "cool down period" before you open any programs or it'll choke again.
Linux doesn't have this problem. It's a myth that Windows "just works" or that os x "just works". You have just as many buggy drivers and weird issues on those operating systems as you do Linux. For me, Linux with GNOME is just the easiest to use, most stable, prettiest, OS out there. I didn't have to use the command line or configure any text files. It just worked.
To install windows 10 I actually needed to use command line instructions from https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3081048
Since he's a Mac user, that's not necessarily a good bet. Safari wins out handily in battery life, and Firefox's UI text rendering (tabs/URL/bookmarks) is comparatively atrocious.
Chrome benefits from its cross-platform bookmark sync, but the snappier interface, extra hour of battery, and the fact that it comes preinstalled all make Safari a pretty popular choice on OS X.
EDIT: Though I suppose Safari is a sorta-open-source project in the same way that Chrome is. Mostly it's the same as WebKit, but not entirely. Does Apple get much in the way of community contributions, or is it a "we have to publish the source, but we're not going to take your input" arrangement like Android?
The operating system is fine. Complaining about a bunch of built-in applications gets us nowhere.
I'd rather complain about the fact that the default filesystem is case insensitive, for instance.
i see that as a positive thing.
Fairly low chance of this. She could be using Safari (closed source), Chrome (closed source) and in third place Firefox.
NB if a binary with additional closed source blobs its not really open source anymore according to the standard definitions of open source.
The problem, and the reason I wanted to give it a try, is software. Things like gotomeeting and such simple work there and are difficult to get working on linux. It cost me a (remote) developer, so I decided that my travel/home rig would be win 8.1 with linux in a VM. So far it's quite convenient, but I don't use much on the windows side.
I think with more adoption we could fix the software issues.
This claim is usually made by Windows users who don't want to invest any effort and time to learn another desktop -- which they had to do in Win8 anyway.
Linux offers several nice desktops (KDE, Gnome, XFCE, E17, etc.) which we can freely choose from. I am a Linux user since the 90's and I have always used it as my primary desktop. It works perfectly well for me. I consider the new Windows metro "desktop" more horrible than even simple Linux desktops.
Freedom has a price. Education has a price. Both require the sincere willingness to do something for it.
Maybe the average Linux user is OK with this, but I can't help but be bugged by it. Cost of having so many options, I suppose.
Elementary does better than most, but only by including a set of software designed explicitly to fit there.
As far as the general look and feel though, it still manages to feel more consistent. There are enough conventions like "clickable things have a hover effect" and relatively consistent styling of UI icons (pre-10 anyway) for it to feel like it's all one system.
Not that OSX is any better - Apple's own Pro apps always had different look that the rest of the system. iTunes was always experimenting with looking odd. Also, third party apps look different - Office, Adobe apps, etc.
So, it nothing wrong with Linux, all systems are like this.
I used to make this claim as someone who had been using desktop gnu/linux for several years. I've been using OSX now for a year and so stopped making the claim. But it is really frustrating to hear people say "it works for me" to rebut claims that it doesn't work for most people. Such counters and arguments over them are basically single data points. If the point under discussion is "does desktop linux work well enough to gain massive amounts of market share?", then you need to run actual large scale trials comparing how hard it is for people to...
1) Start up a spreadsheet program and do things
2) Check social media and play some random video
3) Play League of Legends
4) <insert your favorite thing here>
Some of these things are indeed comparably easy in, say Ubuntu (or were pre-unity) for me, but I was an MIT undergrad that hung around SIPB, the computer club. My massive amounts of tech privilege make it impossible to individually evaluate if the user experience someone has with spreadsheets is acceptable unless I put real study into it. The same is probably true of many HN commenters. So until someone spends the time and money to run actual user experience studies, we have no data to say that the linux desktop can take over the world.
Also, there isn't even one "Linux desktop". There is mint, Ubuntu+gnome classic, Ubuntu+unity, ubuntu+some weird xmonad setup.
Another argument I often see for why Desktop Linux has an advantage is that "Linux is free as in beer". But it is not. If someone making $15/hr takes more than 8 hours (not unrealistic, at least for an MIT CS student back in 2010) fiddling with things and trying to get them to work, then desktop Linux is more expensive.
Learning Linux is like learning LaTeX. It requires serious effort to become powerfully useful but then you never want to miss it because there is nothing that can actually compete.
OSX and Windows are easier to handle at the first place but if you get into the details then you may have more trouble than in Linux (driver problems, document formats) because there is no obsolescence in Linux. In OSX and Windows you depend on the cooperation of the manufacturers. In Linux drivers, applications, and document formats written decades ago still work.
> Learning Linux is like learning LaTeX
This is a particularly fantastic analogy when you look at the type of error messages that LaTeX produces.
Nevertheless LaTeX is still the favorite DTP system among scientists. LaTeX is actually not too hard to learn. It just requires some mental effort to get it. Scientists are willing to do that. Some people obviously don't.
Maybe but using a Linux distro like Ubuntu or Mint or similar is more like using an Office package.
That said, every single time I've tried to use a Linux OS either as my primary laptop or desktop OS I experience significant problems that no end user should have to deal with... the last time, I added a drive after install... the system updates included an update to grub.. next reboot, wouldn't even load... after 3 days of setting up my environment, applications, vmware, etc, etc... I can't even fucking boot.
The time before that I couldn't get both monitors to work... twice before that I picked recommended hardware for linux support (straight intel graphics) and hit weird regressions when the OS updated on one, and the other just some wierd suspend issues..
I agree "works fine" for the desktop is a huge stretch... it does appear to mostly work okay for my HTPC, except when it resumes from suspend there's no sound (fortunately it's got an ssd and reboots fast), or that if I happen to turn it on too early before the TV is on, the display doesn't come on the screen (guessing it picks the DV port instead of the HDMI)...
either way.. still stuff that's worked in windows/osx forever, without issue.
was this in the 90s, early 2000s? Linux hasn't had those issues in a decade. Suspend/Resume is horrible on Windows of me as well, my linux systems do so flawlessly, but there is a good 10% chance of blue screen when undocking my corporate windows laptop out of suspend.
The issue with booting was mid-late 2013, I haven't tried running Linux as the main OS on my desktop since, Windows 10 has me considering it.
http://www.hackinglinuxexposed.com/articles/20040705.html
http://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.de/2011/04/linux-security...
As long as you stay away from perpetually-beta distributions that I shall not name, driver problems are really a non-issue. I haven't had a malfunctioning peripheral under Linux in a very long time now (years?). Driver problems are on-par with what you see on Windows :-).
> missing support for newer OpenGL standards
This has been a common complaint about OS X for a long time, and no one thought desktop on it didn't work.
> fragmentation of desktop environments
As long as the desktop respects ICCCM (hint: they all tend to do) and you don't write your application using some obscure, non-ICCCM compliant toolkit, this tends to be a non-issue.
> it doesn't even have GUI isolation (meaning that any X11 application can sniff your keyboard input):
This is true. However, the expectation is that you'll usually run open source software from trusted sources (and you can run untrusted applications in an Xnest session). Methods aside, it's just as easy for a malicious user to keylog you on Windows or OS X, the Linux keylogger is just more trivial to write.
This is false. Windows has a mechanism since Vista (UIPI) that provide some UI isolation (lower privilege processes can e.g. not listen to keystrokes on higher privilege processes):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Interface_Privilege_Isola...
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb625963.aspx
E.g. web browsers normally run at the 'low' integrity level and cannot eavesdrop on other processes (which are normally at the 'medium' level). It would be nice if someone with knowledge Windows internals could explain UIPI a bit more, I gathered this knowledge a while ago due to being interested in the topic :).
Of course, if users just accept anything at UAC prompts, everything is lost ;).
I recently installed a workstation for using CUDA, with X11, using nVidia's off-the-shelf packages (the Ubuntu CUDA packages have some compatibility problems).
- On Ubuntu everything worked fine first (LTS, 14.04), after some upgrade, X11 did not come up anymore. Some problem with DKMS. While debugging, it doesn't help that Canonical has made disabling the display manager completely non-sensical. Something akin to
update-rc.d -f lightdm remove
- On CentOS installing the CUDA package simply gives a blank screen and you cannot switch to TTYs anymore. You still have to manually disable nouveau, etc:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140808222919-219659043-rhel...
https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/842496/nvidia-drive...
Of course, this is just an anecdote. But my experience while still reading Linux forums and helping other people, it's often still work to get and keep hardware running.
I don't have much experience with Windows. But on the few HP/Dell workstations that I have set up, Windows generally worked out of the box.
As long as the desktop respects ICCCM (hint: they all tend to do) and you don't write your application using some obscure, non-ICCCM compliant toolkit, this tends to be a non-issue.
There is much more to a desktop than just being able to display windows rendered by a random toolkit, such as: consistent keyboard shortcuts, consistent look an feel, etc. Every time that I tried to switch back to Linux, the lack of consistent keyboard shortcuts drives me crazy (though they are typically somewhat consistent within the applications provided by KDE, GNOME, etc.).
it's just as easy for a malicious user to keylog you on Windows or OS X
OS X uses GUI isolation, only applications that a user has explicitly enabled in the accessibility options can listen in on keyboard events or send events. Moreover, app store applications use sandboxing by default and can't see files outside the sandbox. So, this is false.
One of the first thing every Linux user needs to know is that he should only use hardware which is listed in the HCL (Hardware Compatiblity list).
If you want to have ready-to-run Linux then take a careful look at http://linuxgizmos.com.
I have a Win7 partition that I boot now and then when I must use software that can't be virtualized well enough.
In 4 years I've never lost work and I had only two crashes after messing with my GPU settings.
If only the biggest proprietary software we available on linux (Looking at you Adobe), I would never go back.
Just make sure to buy a Nvidia graphics card (and use their proprietary driver). The (proprietary) AMD drivers work, but their performance is much worse than on Windows.
I don't have a large experience with wine gaming but Hearthstone runs pretty well (too well, even) on Wine.
* Steam for Linux is pretty rock-solid, at least on the common desktop environments. Some bugginess once you get into bare window manager territory (particularly WindowMaker or anything that's designed specifically for tiling), but otherwise works without issue.
* A very large number of indie games are targeting Linux either alongside or soon after Windows. Kerbal Space Program is the prodigial example here, and seems to be leading the charge for Unity3D.
* Pretty much everything made by Valve now runs on Linux natively, for obvious reasons. A part of me hopes that - when GabeN gets over his fear of the number "three" - Half Life 3 will launch on Linux/SteamOS first.
* Some non-Valve big-budget games and publishers are gradually making their way to Linux - both new and old. Borderlands 2/PS, much of the Tropico series, Cities: Skylines, Serious Sam 3, The Talos Principle, KoToR II (no KoToR I yet, alas, but since it's the same engine, there's probably a good chance of that changing soon), Civilization V/BE, various others.
* SteamOS is, in my experience as of late, excruciatingly difficult to install; Valve, in their wisdom, ships it as some zip archive instead of a more typical DVD/USB image. Perhaps the SteamOS installer is meant to be written to a USB stick with Windows rather than with Linux? Whatever the case, I've yet to get SteamOS to actually install, though I'm planning on revisiting it soon.
* Single-monitor setups are generally fine. Multi-monitor setups become problematic, since the games tend to do wacky things with their resolution and fullscreen-window sizes; I generally work around them by running games in windowed mode.
* Which graphics card vendor to go with depends on whether or not you want to stay strictly on the free software path. AMD's cards are currently vastly superior to Nvidia's when running on FOSS drivers, in no small part due to AMD actually participating in said driver's development. Nvidia's cards are currently superior to AMD's when running on proprietary drivers, though this might change once AMD migrates from fglrx (the current non-free driver) to something based on the FOSS "radeon" driver.
* Wine is quite fantastic nowadays, though game compatibility is still hit-and-miss. I regularly play Fallout: NV on Linux+Wine with very few issues (namely, the occasional crash after a few hours of gameplay); Fallout 3 is playable, but you can't use the Pip-Boy radio due to a bug with Wine and DirectSound (?) (sound will be garbled, and the game will crash with a deadlock after a half-minute or so). Valve's games are naturally very Wine-friendly (though this is no longer necessary, of course). Steam works reasonably well, but requires installing some font packages in order to get text to show up. Older games tend to work better than newer games.
I disagree. MS-DOS "works fine", and had many users. I would say that on average, UIs on Linux (both commandline and GUI) are better than those on MS-DOS, hence Linux UIs also work fine.
I wouldn't claim that the average Linux UI is great, or follows any HCI guidelines, or whatever. What I would claim is that it doesn't matter; all that matters is that it's possible to get the job done. Just like it was possible to get the job done on MS-DOS.
Regarding the XKCD reference, I think that's covered in the parent's statement "if you come over, then all the desktop software makers will port their software to Linux". Those kinds of distinctions make it all too easy to move the goalposts; eg. "Linux is useless because it doesn't run MyProprietaryApp(TM)".
Strongly disagree. I have no trouble getting around in KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, XFCE or i3. They are all just fine.
Seriously, I don't have enough fingers on my hands to count different UI toolkits (every other one having its own font rendering, duh), service/daemon management subsystems, audio subsystems and VFS implementations, each having incompatible API and behaving differently. Every other program has its own standards - what would happen upon just clicking a link heavily depends on where you do this. Most software "somewhat works", not "works just fine". Besides, maybe, the very core GNU userland, which is, indeed, rock solid and quite consistent.
I'm unaware of alternatives, though. Fear, there aren't any. </rant>
GNOME 3 in perticular is the best arranged desktop in my opinion because the way it separates the desktop and application launcher/switcher/search into two distinct modes and makes context switching so easy with just a key press, a click, or a hot corner. Everything is always in the same place and easy to access with little cognitive overhead. Whereas using the Mac application bar is really messy, trying to follow flyout menus that go off at odd angles, etc., and that's far from the only reason I dislike the UI. GNOME follows the way my mind works. I'm either using the applications I want or switching between them, and unifying everything in these categories makes so much sense, I'm surprised everyone doesn't follow the model.
That's entirely my opinion, and I tend to be biased and think the only reason people complain about the desktop experience is because it's not whatever they're used to, but the only thing I know for sure is that there's no one way to arrange a desktop that appeals to everyone.
How is making a feature (that is opt-in) good enough to get people to opt-in a bad thing here?
See Spotify for a very recent example of this process.
When you post "M$" in a reply I automatically mark you as rabidly anti-Microsoft and usually stop reading. I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but childish acts such as those have no place in a rational discussion.
Of course, in a thread about closed source software spying on users there's going to be a bit more people arguing the points of the former.
Is it so awful to use an acronym that reminds the reader of these practices? I think it's prudent to not use it, only because it detracts from his point when readers like yourself become distracted by it. But it's not as "rabidly anti-Microsoft" as you are painting it to be, either.
Are you kidding me? If you're a full-stack developer, then try opening Android Studio & PyCharm IDE at the same time, and after approx. 1 hour, things just get horrible. Everything is stuck. I don't know exactly what is happening, but somewhere the Swap handling horrible wrong.
No such issues on Mac OS/Windows :/
On the other hand, I've had my fair share of windows weirdness. My work machine will from time to time not shutdown and I'll come the next day to a bluescreen. What does that say about windows? Nothing at all, it's likely a driver issue too.
I think you are being a bit biased on this one. There are a lot of applications that the "free" alternative is just not good enough in comparison with the propetary one.
Just to name a few:
Gimp and Photoshop
Inkscape and Illustrator
Maya/3DStudio and Blender
All these applications could run under Linux just fine if the vendors cared.
It's not so much about "caring" as about the ability to pay programmers to create profitable software.
Examples include Matlab, the Avizo image analysis suite, a certain simulation package that was described as AllSIM in a controversial discussion relating to CERN last week on HN and Maya (not scientific but it does illustrate the sort of high end very expensive niche stuff that tends to have Linux versions).
More commercial applications:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Proprietary_commercia...
http://www.techdrivein.com/2011/05/10-commercial-apps-for-li...
http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxCommercialApplications...
YoLinux looks old and has some non-working links, so I'm not sure it's being maintained. (Indeed, one link leads to Windows and Mac OS X software, not Linux.)
Lin-App, the most promising site, hasn't updated "What's up" since 15.04.2011. (Also, its most recent comments are 2 and 11 months ago.)
As it says in the URL, the TechDriven story is also from 2011, and the programs are from Lin-App.
It's hard to see the signs of a vibrant ecosystem....
Basically, for the big names in computer-animated movies, the Year of the Linux Desktop has already happened.
There is no demand for this software on linux. Professionals have better things to do than choose their software based on ideology.
My motivation for using libre software is:
- When you use a proprietary software, you are using "somebody else's software, licensed for your usage".
- When you are using libre software, you are using YOUR software.
Software built for profit have better incentives for financial development support, and that's why it's hard for libre software to catch up on features.
We can support libre software with donations (or better not giving money to the locked competence), and more importantly using the libre software that lacks of the non-vital features, at least at personal level.
In the long run, libre will outlast the locked, it's a matter of financial incentives.
And if Linux had any significant market share (I'd say even 10-20%) you would have native Linux versions of most of that software - not entirely unlike what you have on OS X.
Edit: clarified.
On the other hand, my sister is a designer, and there are so many missing features on Inkscape that prevent her to use it in her profession life. The comparison seems unfair, but it is the closest thing to an alternative for Illustrator in the software free world.
What Adobe have achieved with photoshop is become the de facto standard for many aspects of design and image work. They have done this through a mixture of (1) being the best practical option and (2) some vendor lock in. We may not like it but well done to them.
That there are features and quality from the well-funded proprietary tools that are lacking in the free/open ones is undeniable. But the examples you chose are ones where if we had to use the free/open ones, we would be just fine. These are cases where free/open options are actually pretty darn nice.
I said that keeping in mind professional use. There are some people who can effectly replace Office with LibreOffice at work and the number is significant.
However, when you try to do the same with a designer then Gimp, Inkscape and Blender falls behind, so yeah... A dev could do a minor manipulation on an image using Gimp, but don't ask a designer to produce a print-ready poster using it.
On the other hand, Maya is available on Linux !
Edit: typos
And not on the automation side, I have also created professional quality icons on GIMP used on our web application.
People just automatically assume that I hate Microsoft because I'm using Linux as the only operating system on my primary laptop. That's not even remotely the case.
Snowden released nothing specifically about Windows. No backdoors, no specific cooperation, only the NSA's bespoke malware (but they also have malware for everything under the sun, Linux, uEFI, RAID firmware, cell modems, etc).
Sure, the NSA were spying on Microsoft by hooking the fiber lines between Microsoft's data centers in order to gain backdoor access to Hotmail (now Outlook.com). But they did the same thing to Google and several other organisations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg
> same thing to Google
So what? The claim was about not using Microsoft's products.
> So what? The claim was about not using Microsoft's products.
No, the claim was that Snowden revealed some Windows issue. That hasn't been shown. PRISM has absolutely nothing to do with Windows at all.
Where is this Snowden-Windows smoking gun? I haven't seen it.
PS - I find it odd that you'd link to that image instead of the main article which tells you exactly what PRISM is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)
July 31, 2012
Microsoft (MS) began encrypting web-based chat with the introduction of the new outlook.com service. This new Secure Socket Layer (SSL) encryption effectively cut off collection of the new service for FAA 702 and likely 12333 (to some degree) for the Intelligence Community (IC). MS, working with the FBI, developed a surveillance capability to deal with the new SSL. These solutions were successfully tested and went live 12 Dec 2012.
Did you not see the evidence in the bottom left corner?
( Microsoft 9/11/07 )
They were compared to the other businesses listed on that lide.
> PRISM is the theft of unencrypted data on dedicated lines between data centers.
This is as common misunderstanding. There are quite a few NSA programs that tap lines, which serve as inputs to XKEYSCORE. Some of these taps are line taps or Tailored Access based attacks, but those are not PRISM.
PRISM is the "polite" way the NSA gets their data, using FISA warrants and the cooperation of the business. They ask for a tap, and the business accommodates them. IF a business decides to not be part of prism, that's when the NSA simply takes the data via other means. The entire point of PRISM as a program is that it involves asking private business to participate.
> PRISM has absolutely nothing to do with Windows at all.
When windows 10 decides to make all those network connections, where are they going? They're writing to some sort of database at Microsoft. Now that windows has made the network part of the OS, the situation at the remote data center becomes relevant.
It was the theft of unencrypted data on dedicated fiber lines between data centers.
It actually didn't impact Windows, it impacted Hotmail, OneDrive, and other Microsoft "Cloud" services. Ditto with Google, Apple, et al.
This is the exact opposite of what was claimed in many of the documents that were leaked. One example;
July 31, 2012
Microsoft (MS) began encrypting web-based chat with the introduction of the new outlook.com service. This new Secure Socket Layer (SSL) encryption effectively cut off collection of the new service for FAA 702 and likely 12333 (to some degree) for the Intelligence Community (IC). MS, working with the FBI, developed a surveillance capability to deal with the new SSL. These solutions were successfully tested and went live 12 Dec 2012.
From; https://search.edwardsnowden.com/
That is the very definition of collaboration.
I think this says more about Android than it does about Windows 10. Windows 10 has crazy defaults, but so does android and many android apps want access to my info for no good reason (e.g. news apps wanting access to list my accounts, my phone number, my contacts, precise location etc.). Comparing privacy defaults of Windows to Android is not comparing it to a particularly high bar.
There was a noticable performance hit, but my phone is 3+ years old. It likely would not be as much on a newer phone.
Hmm? I can do exactly this in the Privacy Guard settings.
You can choose which permissions you want an app to have and which you don't. You can also set to Ask every time as well as just blanket blocking/.allowing permanently.
As far as I'm aware you just long-press the app name in order to get to the more granular permissions controls.
There's nothing else I'm aware of that needs these long presses to get more options, save the stuff that Android has anyway.
HN rate limits replies when comments are nested. You either wait for the reply link to show up, or you clicky the time stamp.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/xposed/modules/xposed-appops...
I wouldn't update on a work machine however - no need to put your time at risk.
It won't beg anymore ;)
FWIW, https://fix10.isleaked.com/ is what I've been going off of so far
At least, this is the same what I did (standard privacy settings and monitoring my network with Glasswire) and I have the same experience.
Feel free to contribute.
That's great. And what have you done about Microsoft not telling you what is inside each Windows Update?
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.e...
How do you know glasswire sees all network activity? What about data that piggybacks on legitimate network activity (e.g. the requests to update.microsoft.com)?
http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/08/22/nsa-windows-8-exploi...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-c...
I'm going to recommend to you, or anyone, wanting to verify Windows 10 network behavior to do it without depending on software running on the OS itself. Try verifying it again using network analyzing software on linux or macosx, running downstream of your network setup. e.g., a router that's running linux you can ssh into and run "ngrep"(kinda like a commandline version of wiresahrk) and verify from there.
http://hakshop.myshopify.com/products/throwing-star-lan-tap
and a couple of USB-Ethernet adaptors
CentOS/RedHat derivitives: https://www.banym.de/linux/centos/setup-bridge-device-on-cen...
Debian/Ubuntu: https://wiki.debian.org/BridgeNetworkConnections
It's probably overly complicated, but because I happened to have an extra router laying about it was the easiest way for me to do it. The setup ultimately looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/klNvoTS.png
The spare router is really only needed for the smartphone. Anything with an ethernet port can be connected directly to the linux laptop.
But simply installing software isn't enough, it needs to be configured. How does one set up OpenWRT or WireShark to filter for this kind of information? What pitfalls might one encounter? Do you need a CS degree in order to interpret the data? What keywords should one use when searching for more information?
With vague answers like the ones so far, you're just making it seem more difficult and intimidating for anyone that has little to no experience in this area. If we want people to be more concerned about their privacy, it needs to be as easy (or easier) for people to take control of their information as it is for them to give it away.
Edit: smtddr has the right idea, thumbs up. Should have hit refresh one more time before posting.
The "evidence" I have seen so far that Windows 10 communicates with its maker is, let's be honest, pretty scaremongery and includes things like LLMNR traffic - which is link-local! - and neglects to consider that Windows Update now checks much more frequently (because of the accelerated release cadence of a rolling release) and essentially torrents its updates now, P2P-style.
If there's a real privacy issue - and there may well be, especially on default settings - we need reliable, detailed, hard information to see what binaries send what to where to begin to address it, and to see what can be turned off, what should be, etc. Does anyone know if anyone's begun that analysis yet?
(Of course it really should be Microsoft openly discussing this, but in the absence of that, the mantle inevitably falls to independent researchers.)
Since MS knows that Windows communications are going to be under a microscope anyway the odds of them expecting to successfully hide the very existence of communications seem low to me, and once they're known to exist they WILL be inspected and publicized.
I'd expect the below-stack communications to be from espionage folks instead, quite frankly.
Disabled every form of data collection possible from the Settings and also edited Group Policy and the registry to disable further collection.
I've also edited the hosts file and added entries for dozens of domains associated with MS telemtry and reporting.
At this point Comodo Firewall was still reporting some suspicious outbound connection requests which I've analysed and blocked most of.
System still works fine and is getting updates okay but I'm sure there is plenty I've missed or that people do not know about yet.
I'm honestly considering rolling back to a clean install of Windows 7 SP1. I'm really not liking Win 10 the more I learn about it.
There is however the issue that adding entries to the hosts file may not change anything, as the domains for this telemetry collection might be hardcoded elsewhere and would likely override/ignore the hosts file.
And you seem to be driven by pure passion toward your beloved corporation that you felt the need to create an account here, 1 hour ago, just to inform us how mute Win 10 is compared to an android phone.
And anyway, even getting to this meant manually ticking out dozens of boxes in several settings windows and installing a packet sniffer to check your own computer for unwanted connections. Nevermind that running a packet sniffer on your outgoing connections usually means you suspect you have a virus (which is what Win10 is?), it requires technical expertise that 95% of Win10 users won't have.
No I don't think GP was driven by hatred of Microsoft, as much as a genuine dislike of an operating system which hands over control of your own computer to someone else. I always thought Stallman was being hyperbolic when he said "with free software the users control the computer, with proprietary the computer controls the users", but I don't anymore.
Windows 10 isn't the first software product to phone home, and that's what packet sniffers are used for the most.
And you'll have to keep doing it after every Windows update. Is Windows 10 really that good to be worth the trouble?
So getting worried because Microsoft is turning against their users by exploiting their data is a legitimate concern. I have disabled all these settings too but I must say that Microsoft damaged the trust I had in them. I always used windows and I am a big fan of the .net framework and of visual studio. But I am now considering learning Linux. I have zero interest in an OS that leaks my personal data.
I think if anything it would be users accepting this strategy by installing the new OS that would be the death knell for privacy on the PC. So far, it doesn't seem clear that this will happen, though.
The reaction from business is predictably hesitant anyway. Some of the concerns about Windows 10 won't apply so much with the more business-oriented versions, but in any case it seems likely that large organisations are going to do their homework, other than maybe a few high-profile early adopters who may or may not have been offered unusual incentives in return for being flag bearers.
As for home users, there was reportedly a post from someone on the Edge team a few days after the launch that gave some figures about adoption generally. They looked quite impressive at first sight, but if you extrapolated from the reported adoption rate, it would still take a substantial increase or a very long time to shift the market as a whole onto Win10, despite all the incentives and nag messages and free upgrades Microsoft have been pushing this time.
The one tiny data point I can contribute myself is that based on analytics I just checked for a consumer-focussed site I run, Edge hasn't even moved the needle on browser distributions this month.
So I'm not sure Microsoft get to sound the death knell for privacy on the PC. They can provide an OS that reduces privacy and raises concerns, but that doesn't necessarily mean people and businesses will choose to use it. Time will tell.
SMEs won't touch it because of the privacy concerns. Corporates who have access to the full privacy features in the enterprise version are still suspicious of it.
Its main USP for the general public is that it's not as bad as Win 8 - which hardly seems like a win at all.
I'm happy to use Linux for some applications, but realistically I think most Windows users who are switching will move to a Mac.
Personally, I'm keeping well away from Win 10. The one machine here with Win 8.1 isn't getting upgraded - ever. I may even downgrade it to 7.
I haven't seen enough to make a firm prediction yet, but I do think if MS can't get a handle on these update and privacy issues very soon and they increasingly become the story instead of any of the new features, the writing may be on the wall. Microsoft seem to have attracted some overall positive reviews at launch for Win10 in the general press and non-geek PC sites/magazines, but a lot of that positive early coverage is getting drowned out by concerns about reliability, privacy, and whether the relatively few big new features (Cortana, Edge, DirectX 12) are actually worth much anyway (with, respectively, questionable effectiveness, lack of plug-ins, and few if any games available that take advantage of it any time soon, among other challenges). "It's not as bad as Win8" is not a pitch that is going to support sales for the next several years, particularly when so many of their business customers are still on 7 anyway and have nearly 5 more years before they're going to run into end-of-support issues and be forced to act one way or another.
Microsoft seem to be throwing everything into cloud and services and mobile-friendly software and new devices, at the expense of solid server/desktop/laptop software that until recently has generally just worked and aside from the occasional blip stayed just working for a long time. Which of these areas has historically yielded Microsoft's more successful offerings, and which has had a string of disappointing results? Exactly.
Arch (pacman) creates .pacnew files for diffing later.
RPM creates .rpmnew files, not sure if you're prompted or not at the time of updating.
If you didn't modify the system config you don't get prompted about what to do.
Mmmh... Did I actually go to slashdot instead of Hacker News?
There are still people who believe this nonsense in 2015?
I use Ubuntu almost daily as a desktop for programming. While it's way better than linux desktops 5 or 10 years ago, it's still a far cry from even Windows even with mainstream apps like Spotify and Dropbox. The UI (Unity, Gnome, and even KDE) still feels like a work in progress, sleep doesn't work for laptops and I feel like almost any update I do beyond security updates, will break my laptop resulting in fresh re-install.
Moving over may work for us, but I doubt it'll work for most people (for now). OSX is the only place left for now.
I don't see a normal PC linux distro winning as a desktop in the future. If I were to guess, the closest to linux most people can flock to for a desktop PC would either be some variant of Android or Chrome OS.
That still doesn't detract from the point that I'm making: normal people will have a lot more troubling transitioning to Linux as opposed to OSX (or even Windows - if coming from OSX). Linux GUI apps just aren't very polished compared to Windows or OSX.
> Many of us use it but we should not regard it as a mainstream offering
Why not? It is being offered by Spotify itself even though it's labeled as 'beta'. It's also branded as a Spotify app and not as a 3rd party client.
> (In spite of this I find Spotify on Linux to work better than Spotify on Mac.)
That's different from my experience. Spotify for Linux didn't even display properly for me. When I scrolled up and down, there's always tearing. At least you gave a reason for your down vote, even though I don't find it valid just because we disagree.
The reason that I said don't regard it as mainstream is (1) this is what they themselves say on their website and (2) I know someone who works there who told me not to rely upon it even existing in the very long term as it just isn't a business priority for them to maintain it.
I don't get the tearing I guess we have different set ups (see what I said about not being a mainstream product). On the Mac I find the newer spotify client to be very slow and heavy on resources. On Linux we still have I think the older version that on my laptop uses far less memory and processor to sit in the background and play music.
Finally I didn't actually downvote you...
So long as you don't use a web-browser.
He may seize the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland if required. I don't think Microsoft will care too much but it's good that our government is at least considering what is happening here. Note that all that was triggered after an open letter sent to the Commissioner by the Swiss Pirate Party.
This because, imho, the issue with every proposed 'fix' for Windows 10 is the same: The deal the Windows 10 buyer made with Microsoft is that Microsoft is allowed to monitor you. There is no guarantee that Microsoft won't disable any fix at a future time, like they do now with methods to bypass their software features (like activation).