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Comment by smt88 | Hacker News Reader

This is an article full of anecdotes, but most of the anecdotes are wrong.

Steve Wozniak isn't an entrepreneur. He's an inventor. Steve Jobs was the entrepreneur and convinced Woz to do things his way (i.e. the way that ended up working).

Marissa Mayer is not an entrepreneur, and she's not even a good CEO. I'd argue she's an absolutely abysmal CEO.

Warren Buffett is certainly not an introvert if you've ever seen him speak, and his history also suggests he's not an introvert. He was a door-to-door salesman as a young man.

It's just ridiculous to say that being introverted is a benefit in entrepreneurship. Starting a company is more about people and relationships than almost any other task in life, and it's much easier when it's something you enjoy and can do naturally.

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Warren Buffett is certainly not an introvert if you've ever seen him speak, and his history also suggests he's not an introvert. He was a door-to-door salesman as a young man.

Introverts can be great speakers and very social beings. It's just that doing so bears a cost that extroverts never understand.

Introversion manifests itself in that interacting with people and presenting yourself in the public will drain your energy levels. Introverts need to recharge themselves alone (or with immediate family only) for a few days after being overly social. If Buffett would just prefer to stay home and do his own things for a couple of days after presenting at each of his quarterly reports, he's likely to be an introvert.

That seems like an alternate definition, when compared to Wikipedia's definition of introversion.

I think it's part of Myers Briggs.

Importantly it should be noted Myers Briggs is mostly considered bunk compared to the Big 5 test.

I'm curious - why is that imported to be noted here? Is the extroversion axis description in the OCEAN trait set markedly different from that used in Myers-Briggs?

That "debunking" is mostly one study by one (somewhat vengeful) researcher, and it keeps being referenced in an attempt to relegate MBTI into the same realm as astrology. Neither the MBTI nor the Big 5 has particularly high predictive capacity (not unlike most metrics in the field of psychology), although I would say both are very statistically significant with regard to certain types of predictions. For instance, I would guess that the vast majority of HN users are INTJ or INTP. If MBTI had no predictive capacity, the distribution of types would instead be uniform.

(P.S. please express your disagreement using evidence and reason, not downvotes. Thanks.)

For humans or any other beings with an obvious conscience Myers Briggs is 100% logical and cannot refuted. Myer Briggs just explains how a conscience being can analyze data.

I don't see it; the Wiki says introverts are more concerned, and derive more pleasure from reflective activities. None of that contradicts that they can have good social skills - it's just tiring to use them.

There is nothing in the article the article that says anything about "having social skills but its more effort to use them".

>There is nothing in the article the article that says anything about "having social skills but its more effort to use them".

I disagree. If you're looking for an exact 1-to-1 mapping of that phrase to the wiki article, you won't find it. However, you have to read multiple sentences and if you interpret them together, it does say that[1]:

++ Some popular psychologists have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.

++ , though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends.

++ Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not necessarily fear social encounters like shy people do.

I think the wiki article on "introversion" describes me quite well. I would characterize myself as extremely introverted. However I'm not shy at all and I have given presentations at Las Vegas conferences. I have no problem making eye contact with the audience and deliver the talks without stuttering. However, I get more stimulation from seeing a news flash about a gcc compiler beta release or reading a book rather than the typical banter at social situations.

It also takes "more effort" on my part to lubricate social interaction with pleasantries (e.g. "how are you?", "how's the weather?", "how are the kids?", etc) rather than to sit quietly and study two web frameworks to determine which one is better. (Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/602/)

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion#...

Everyone has social skills, it doesn't need to be said. On the other hand, nothing in the Wiki article says introverts have worse social skills than extroverts. All the article says is that introverts prefer solitary activities and that their "energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction", ie., it takes them more effort (=energy) to interact with people (=use social skills).

As someone who's met Warren Buffett, I can say he's definitely an extrovert.

He's a complete social butterfly and absolutely loves being the center of attention. He's constantly telling jokes and making people laugh.

That said, his partner Charlie Munger is definitely a lot more inline with the classical definition of an introvert.

I love being the center of attention, and I like telling jokes and making people laugh. I'm also very introverted.

A lot of people confuse 'extrovert' with 'confident' and 'introvert' with 'insecure'

I've met some very, very insecure extroverts. They'll crack jokes all day and make a lot of noise, then go home and are desperate for company to distract themselves from their own ideas. Met some very confident extroverts, too.

Also met some insecure introverts, people who had social anxiety. Also met some very confident introverts who will go out, shake hands and converse, then spend hours alone going over what they learned while they were out.

Introvert here, who has also frequently been called a social butterfly. I think the hardest thing for folks to understand is that introverted does not mean socially inept or shy. I love being outgoing, but it also takes a toll on me. I need some quiet (usually alone) time to recharge in between outgoing sessions or I start becoming shy.

Agreed. I think it can be hard to understand that introverts can be very skilled in social situations without being energized by it. The 'centre of the room' personality is very often an introvert, especially if they're good at it.

I agree with this. I prep when I go to social gatherings and focus on having interactions and having a good time.

But after that I need solitude to recharge which I believe is opposite to an extrovert who feel energized with these interactions.

Buffett is more extroverted today, he grew up as an introvert.

Per his own biography:

He found it extremely difficult to approach women when he was younger. He simply was unable to do it.

He used to hide in the corner at college parties, and would wait for others to introduce themselves. Once he became comfortable with people or a situation, he could open up.

He was terrified by public speaking, and was completely unable to do it. He had to force himself to get better at it, so he could be effective in business.

He kept heavily to himself growing up, had a couple of friends, and spent his time reading investing books from the public library.

From his own descriptions of his pre-20s youth, he was a classic introvert.

I believe this version of the facts is the correct one. I remember reading that he had taken a Dale Carnegie class on public speaking to help him with doing that. In his own words, more or less, it didn't stop his knees from knocking his fear while he was talking, but it did help him talk anyway while his knees were knocking...

You've repeatedly gotten the definition of introversion wrong in this thread. I personally think it's just another way us humans have invented to categorize eachother but basically introversion has nothing to do with confidence or shyness and everything to do with how you "recharge."

The best way I've been able to describe it:

When I'm out socializing, I'm often the life of the party. I was called a "social butterfly" over the weekend at a tailgate. I'm usually the guy at the party or whatever being loud, having a good time, talking to everyone and getting all of them to have a good time too.

I also have no trouble talking to people. I often just strike up conversations with strangers in lines, elevators, just walking down the street, etc. I can approach the pretty girl and talk to her, and not be nervous about it. I can speak in public, and I've been essentially a "door-to-door salesman" (cold calls instead of doors, but you get what I mean).

But, at the end of the day, I need to have my "anti-social" time. I get burnt out on all of the stuff above, and if I do it too much, I'll get annoyed and tired, and end up not being very fun to be around. After too much partying, I need a few nights to just chill at home and relax, maybe with the people closest to me (at most).

I'm outgoing. But I'm also introverted.

Introversion is a quality that can't be (easily) changed. Being outgoing is a skill that one can learn.

You sounded very defensive. I think the article is just trying to clear up some misconceptions on what people typically think of Introverts, and the notion that only Extroverts make successful Entrepreneurs. Instead, both Introverts and Extroverts have something to bring to the table.

When I first started on my current role, we were required to undertake a five-day leadership `bootcamp`. It's meant for superintendents (i.e. team leaders), in which the primary objective is to identify our own communication / working styles and recognising others.

This was done through various tests (e.g. Myer-Briggs) and team exercises. The whole week is spent to prepare us to manage our team and work effectively in a team with people from various backgrounds.

A good explanation that was given during the bootcamp, was that Extroverts draw their energy from their surroundings (external), e.g. feedback from other people, whilst Introverts draw it internally.

Introverts can be very sociable and `work the room` just like Extroverts, it's just that it takes more effort for them as compared to extroverts.

TL,DR; There is a misconception of what Introverts and Extroverts are. Introversion vs Extroversion are simply traits and not mutually exclusive.

At Microsoft Steve Ballmer played the role of the extravert. He was the guy who went out and sold and sold hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk

I think his contribution to the early Microsoft was underrated. But I think Gates realized it. Maybe that is the real reason why he replaced Gates. But lacking a trusted tech partner to tell him when he was wrong might explain the Ballmer record as CEO ;<).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

According to Wikipedia: "Extraversion and introversion are typically viewed as a single continuum."

Yes, you are right. It makes sense to see it that way.

I didn't read it either, but I can honestly state the one communality I've seen in all successful Entrepreneurs, and it's never pointed out in these cute stories.

It is this; having a wealthy father. We are force feed these stories about what it takes to become wealthy, or become entrepreneurs, but when I dig deep, there's always a wealthy family member who helped at just the right time. Usually that family member helped out in ways other ways, on top of free money. They offered things--like really good advice, family lawyer, family accountant, family friends/connections, free place to start a business, etc.

If you happen to be that modern day Horatio alger, I tip my hat to you. The rest of us used credit card money, and usually had just one shot to make it big.

I agree with you, just not on the money part though. I think family background and connections plays a more significant role in determining success.

No offense, but based on your post, I don't think you understand what being introverted actually means. It appears you're referring to social anxiety or something, which is VASTLY different then introversion.

No, I'm referring to the feeling that social interaction is hard work and/or not enjoyable. That's not necessarily anxiety.

As an entrepreneur, you have to talk to and interact with people constantly. If you won't do that, you won't make your early sales, dig up opportunities by networking, or do as much customer discovery as you need.

I started a company with an introvert, and he simply never saw the value in going out and talking to people without a goal. You have to do that. Some of the best opportunities will arise when you aren't looking for anything in particular.

When you're weighing cost/benefit of socializing, if the cost is very high, you'll do a lot less socializing. That's a problem when starting a company.

His choice not to network was not because of being an introvert, it was because he didn't understand what was required to run a startup.

An introvert can still network all day and talk with people; but if you go home and watch Netflix you might be an introvert, if you go out to a bar with some buddies, you're probably an extrovert.

You appear to have skipped the part where it is clearly explained that introverts are not necessarily shy. Admittedly, it's a common confusion.

I think (purely from experience) that introverts are naturally shy, but they might not actually be shy.

Most of the people I know who have 'made it' are the CTOs not the CEOs, but that's started to change since getting into e.f. and running CertSimple.

I met someone who runs one of the top 1000 websites a few weeks ago. Their company is beyond startup size but they still run it. They're the CEO not the CTO, and they're naturally very shy: but they also force themself to ask awkward questions and challenge people directly about non-technical things.

Some people don't consider introversion to be shyness, but rather whether you gain or lose energy from being in social situations with others

That makes a lot of sense. I can see some naturally shy people filled with nervous energy from conflict shying away, and other naturally shy people feeling the nervousness and doing it anyway because it needs to be done.

Introvert shy away from things that doesn't really matter to them,but talk about something that they are interested - honestly you will find them as most aggressive people. :)

Shyness is the lack of self esteem in social circumstances, it's more than feasible to be a shy extrovert. The best explanation I've heard is that introverts spend a majority of their time in social circumstances scanning people, trying to understand how that person "works". That takes a LOT of mental energy.

I used to work for a top 5 Civil engineers and the Boss of the Bridges dept was a world renowned engineer and very shy.

Introverts usually get less practise at managing social situations because they need more time alone, but that doesn't mean they can't be good at being social. :)

> Starting a company is more about people and relationships than almost any other task in life, and it's much easier when it's something you enjoy and can do naturally

Introverts care A LOT about people and relationships. They are choosy about who they spend time with. Keeping the right people around you, at the start of a company, seems like a good strategy to me.

That might be true of the founding team, but it's still not really true.

In order to get to know the right people in the first place, you have to go through a lot of people. Someone who knows 10,000 people will have a much better pool to choose from than someone who knows 1,000.

My point was just that starting a company is a game of creating relationships. If you dislike meeting people, making small talk, following up, etc. (or if it makes you really tired), you're going to do less of that.

None of this is a jab at introverts. As I said, Woz is an introvert and an incredibly important inventor in the history of computing. He's just not a great entrepreneur, which is fine! Most people aren't, and it's a dubious honor to begin with.

There is nothing about sales that stops an introvert from being good at it. The is especially true is the introvert is passionate about what they are selling. So much of sales is listening to the client's problems and thinking about how to engage them. Introverts have a real advantage here -- they build good relationships that can be maintained over a long time.

> listening to the client's problems and thinking about how to engage them

> build good relationships that can be maintained over a long time

That's basically the opposite of what "introversion" means. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion#...

"Introversion" doesn't mean not doing these things, nor being unable to do them. It's about preference and perception.

> "Introversion" doesn't mean not doing these things, nor being unable to do them

I never said that.

Being introverted makes it harder to do these things, because they don't come naturally.

They may very well come naturally (they do for me), but they carry a cost that must be repaid later with some alone time (they do for me).

Introverts can easily be good at certain types of sales, which as you correctly point out can often be more about problem-solving and where client interactions are usually structured discussions rather than battles for attention. But not all types of sales are the same, and selling magazine subscriptions door to door doesn't reward deep thought and is certainly tough for people that aren't energised by the prospect of introducing themselves to hundreds of people per day, never mind people who find forced interactions a bit awkward.

I think it stretches the definition of "introvert" somewhat to include people who chose to do door-to-door sales or flogging popcorn at football stadiums for fun, as Warren Buffett reportedly did.

I think it stretches the definition of "introvert" somewhat to include people who chose to do door-to-door sales or flogging popcorn at football stadiums for fun, as Warren Buffett reportedly did.

Ironically, your comment convinced me of the opposite of the point you were trying to make. Sure, door-to-door sales and flogging popcorn involve dealing with a lot of people, but you are only dealing with them superficially. Your job is to get your product in front of as many people as possible but not to connect with them in any meaningful manner. In fact, you will need to deal with near continuous rejection or at least, indifference. It actually sounds to me like those might be better jobs for an introvert than an extrovert.

I think this thread (and everything I've read on this topic in the last few years) proves that people largely don't agree on the definitions of these terms, but having known many people who consider themselves introverted, "dealing with a lot of people superficially", and "dealing with near continuous rejection or indifference" is extremely poorly aligned with their personalities. Speaking personally, those things are my nightmare.

I can deal with rejection and indifference because I don't give a crap about the people on the other end of the transaction. It seems to me that you are describing social anxiety more than introversion. However, that was kind of the point of your comment that not everyone seems to agree on the definition.

I think, however, we are also dealing with understanding the word "superficial" differently. Superficial interactions with people in the sense of meaningless small talk of no consequence is more of an extrovert thing, I agree. However, when I said "superficial," I meant that you aren't really dealing with people at all, but rather hands from which you take money and into which you insert popcorn. There is very little real human interaction in that scenario even if you are technically around people all day.

EDIT: And in the door-to-door salesman scenario (which, I agree, sounds like hell), you are still spending the vast majority of your time alone in your own head walking from house to house.

If you're aiming to deliver a new pitch in 15 seconds time you're not really alone in your own head, especially not if you're scanning the garden for hints and clues that might help you make small talk that stops that conversation from coming to a quick end. But of course, if you like being alone in your own head, nobody's stopping you from not knocking on those doors...

Agreed, introverted people can probably cope with selling popcorn on autopilot surprisingly easily if they don't have related issues with crowds or self-confidence. But is running round a stadium shouting at people the first thing the average teenage introvert thinks of as a fun way to make money, even in a pre-internet age?

Introversion and social anxiety or shyness are not the same thing.

I believe Steve Jobs was actually an introvert as well.

"People from his childhood recalls that he was usually distant from the crowd and discussed philosophical issues with his close friends. Later on he became a Buddhist and practiced meditation, which is a deciding factor in my opinion. The fact the he was a good salesman doesn't necessarily suggest his extroversion."

> Warren Buffett is certainly not an introvert if you've ever seen him speak, and his history also suggests he's not an introvert. He was a door-to-door salesman as a young man.

Buffett was most definitely an introvert. He constantly talks about how extremely shy he was growing up. He was so shy he was unable to do public speaking effectively. He famously took a Dale Carnegie course on public speaking and forced himself to become less introverted.

"Warren Buffett Used To Throw Up Before Public Speaking"

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-warren-buffett-learned-pu...

> Marissa Mayer ... and she's not even a good CEO. I'd argue she's an absolutely abysmal CEO.

We should not make such claims. Do you claim to have complete information on the matter?

"We should not make such claims" -- why not? She's a public figure and her performance matters to hundreds of thousands of people. Debating her ability is important.

I don't have complete information, but I don't need it. She's not paring down the company's businesses. It's still impossible to quickly answer the question, "What does Yahoo do?" She was supposed to focus to company and define it, and she hasn't.

She's also made moves that employees were upset about, such as eliminating working from home.

There have been lots of articles about how poorly Mayer is doing, and I personally have never seen one arguing the opposite. Look at this one: http://qz.com/314225/everything-we-learned-from-marissa-maye...

I agree with general sentiment but I don't think you should just cut down on someone as bad CEO. It is an extremely difficult task to revive a company that has lost its charm. Also most judgment on whether someone is a "Good CEO" or not is based on retrospect so you really never know. For example, Steve Jobs probably was seen as a bad CEO at some point in his career. Jeff Bezos could be also seen as a bad CEO because of how stressful the culture is at Amazon, but you can't really say that either because the company itself is doing pretty well. It's all subjective and contextual. But I agree with you that she's NOT an entrepreneur and that's a fact.

Buffet is an introvert. He reads 80% of his work days according to a recent article.

pretty baseless conjecture I think is against HN rules

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