Where should the “6” key be? | Hacker News Reader

Where should the “6” key be?

ultimatehackingkeyboard.com

44 pointsingve67 comments

A side comment, as it's the first time I see the "ultimate hacking keyboard":

Whenever I see a keyboard with an "Fn" key, I sigh. This means that the designer of the keyboard thought he knows better which functions I need and took valuable space in the modifier row for a key which I will probably never use. Media control functions? Come on.

Most keyboards that have an "Fn" key do not allow you to remap it in any way and invent new, impressively useless functions for it, often involving holding it for a second or longer to get to some functionality (the mind boggles).

I couldn't understand from the description if the "Fn" key is fully configurable — I sincerely hope it is, because otherwise I will never want to use this keyboard.

Otherwise this seems like a really nice design.

I actually use media control keys very often when playing music on my laptop, much much quicker than going into an app first.

I actually like the how OS X by default uses the fn functionality, and you press fn to access f1, f2 etc.. Except for very few games, I never actually use those keys anyways. And even then I use something like Palua[0] to automatically enable/disable the fn key based on the app that is currently in focus.

[0] http://itunes.apple.com/app/palua/id431494195

Having to press three keys for a force reload (Ctrl+F5 on Windows/Linux) seems incredibly awkward.

I can't really imagine living without F5, F11 or F12 as a web developer.

OS X key shortcuts are very much biased towards alphabetical keys. F-key usage in standard system shortcuts is a very rare thing. In your particular example, reloading is done with Command+R while force reload is Command-Shift-R. Most OS X shortcuts follow this pattern: they're easier to remember (phonetic association) and usually make for less awkward hand positioning when used.

Because of this, on my MacBook I've mapped FKeys to do global stuff; F1 brings up Spotlight (launcher), F2 shows a Quake-style drop down terminal, and F3 bring up a popover calendar (Fantastical). The only exception is F4, which ive set up to pop open Xcode's "Quick Open" UI.

Small point: the phonetic association of Cmd-R is great for English speakers, but much less meaningful to users who don't know English

For force reload in prefer Ctrl/Cmd-R in the meantime. Although it's more keys to press than F5 I still find it to be more comfortable because I need to move fingers less.

However I agree that software development without function keys would suck (IDE shortcuts, debugger, control, etc.)

On Mac keyboards, F5 doesn't require Fn because it doesn't have a media key alternative. F5 always does F5 whether you push Fn or not. (F6 is the same way.)

You could have set up those media keyboard shortcuts yourself at the software level.

The problem with the Fn key is that it, itself, typically cannot be reassigned.

It is possible to remap pretty much any OS X key with the help of a utility like Karabiner.

On Apple hardware? Sure, probably. On other hardware on an Apple machine? It depends.

https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/faq.html.en

Incidentally, if you try to do this with the Caps Lock key on an aluminum Apple keyboard, you will (painfully) discover, that this key has a built-in hardware delay.

Remapping it to Control (as most normal people do) means that some of your control combinations will miss, also under Windows (it's really a hardware thing).

It's my understanding that to remap Caps Lock to Control (nicely that is) on Apple's keyboards that you need to use Seil (closely related to Karabiner, and from the same dev).

https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/seil.html.en

The standard keyboard preferences have this option under "modifier keys..." Is this missing some functionality I haven't noticed?

Even worse. Many new laptop keyboards have the media control buttons be the default behavior, and require the "Fn" key to access the F keys.

You can almost always swap that in the BIOS or the OS

Worse is when standalone keyboards do this (many bluetooth and "multimedia" keyboards do).

No BIOS to configure and the software they come with don't usually have the option either.

Don't forget the tiny arrow keys (also sometimes home/pgup/pgdn/end) bunched up together - what the hell were those designers smoking? :-)

From the main page: "It's important to note that the above are only the layers of the factory keymap. You can redefine them in any way and create multiple, custom, application-specific keymaps."

I don't notice anywhere in the description which clarifies if the Fn key itself can be changed to, say, ctrl or alt.

I also would avoid this (otherwise nice) keyboard if Fn could not be changed to a standard modifier.

As the lead developer of the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard I can confirm that the Fn key can be reprogrammed just like any other key.

You can make Backspace emit Ctrl, Enter emit Alt+Tab, or make the Right Shift play back a macro.

This seems like such a massively important feature that I have to ask you, as a keyboard developer, is there any particular obstacle to making a keyboard fully reprogrammed? I feel my productivity on my laptop would be massively improved by a few select changes such as Fn+hjkl as PgUp/PgDn/Home/End, and such, yet virtually no laptop I've seen allows this, so I have to rely on workarounds to fix the sometimes braindead layouts. Is there a hardware-level obstacle to doing this or is it just that the mainstream manufacturers just can't be arsed?

PS: I'm not your target audience (I use my laptop keyboard almost exclusively) but great job so far!

That's great. If I can make Fn work as Ctrl or Alt, then this keyboard would seem to have everything I need. Its design (particularly the split spacebar with extra modifier) nicely solves some of my keyboard annoyances.

I'll keep an eye on its development and availability. Thanks.

Thanks for the clarification! This is very reassuring. I would suggest that you explicitly state this on your web page — as this thread shows, I wasn't the only one being suspicious of the 'Fn' key. We've been burned too many times.

I guess you could make a rule like Fn-* = Ctrl-*. And anyway the plan seems to be making the software Free, so you can hack it anyway.

> Whenever I see a keyboard with an "Fn" key, I sigh. This means that the designer of the keyboard thought he knows better which functions I need and took valuable space in the modifier row for a key which I will probably never use.

And what tells you they won't make this key configurable? Nothing.

> Media control functions? Come on.

Most people listen to music, you know. It's certainly not crazy to have them on every keyboard.

The FN key, especially on laptops, is not something the OS has any control over. A few laptops have a bios setting to allow swapping fn and ctrl buttons, but not all of them.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/514781/intercepting-the-f...

The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard (linked elsewhere in the thread) provides a software tool to reconfigure the keyboard's firmware. I don't see how the manufacture couldn't provide something like this to also configure the Fn key combos.

I prefer firmware configuration over software anyway -- it lets you re-use the same keyboard with different computers or when dual booting.

The function key is most often (read: always) implemented in hardware so when you hold the button the chip in the keyboard modifies the raw character code sent over USB.

Unless they explicitly programmed the IC for re onfigurability of FN, it will be the same useless button.

> "Most keyboards that have an "Fn" key do not allow you to remap it in any way…"

I just got the Vortex Poker 3 which lets you remap (and bind to macros) almost anything, and it's working out great so far.

Best i can tell, you can create your own keymaps covering on all of the four "layers" reachable via modifier keys.

After investing in a Truly Ergonomic[0] keyboard, I personally don't want ever again to use a keyboard with asymmetrically staggered keys. Having a perfectly mirrored layout is much nicer to use. The 6 on it is on the right, if that matters.

[0] That's the brand name, it's not really truly ergonomic, or at least not as designed for ergonomics as a Kinesis. Homepage/store: http://www.trulyergonomic.com

My TEK stopped registering certain keys, like the arrow keys. Wasn't sure if it's a Mac issue. I bought the Model 01 on Kickstarter which ships next year.

I've got tons of keyboard notes: http://thespanishsite.com/public_html/org/ergo/keyboards.htm...

And I wrote a small blog on Ergonomic keyboards:

https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heir...

For something we use 8-20 hours a day, keyboards should evolve a little more.

I've read so many RSI stories it's scary:

http://markmcb.com/2014/10/13/severe-hand-rsi-pain-and-recov...

https://24ways.org/2014/dont-push-through-the-pain/

http://www.looknohands.me

I've been on a TrulyErgonomic for the past 3 years, and on a TypeMatrix before that (using the Bépo layout, a french dvorak), and while I've been happy with both of them, I would advise to check the ErgoDox, Axios, and Keyboardio nowadays before buying one (they are splitted and have more keys on the thumb).

I bought a TECK when they first came out. Sadly the layout doesn't lend itself at all for other languages. I tried to reconfigure it[0] for German but I found the experience pretty jarring, especially because I don't have a job where I can always use my own keyboard (and thanks to its weight the TECK is a bit heavy to lug around).

One thing I liked was the separate arrow keys (though the duplicate didn't make much sense). I barely ever need the numpad but I can't live without the arrow keys (I don't even see how anyone who's not a vim user can).

[0]: https://github.com/pluma0/teck#overview

> http://www.trulyergonomic.com

I like how they advertise "100% of the keys in 60% of the space", when the majority of the space they save is the numpad... which isn't replicated in their keyboard. There's a number of odd choices with keys, probably the greatest of which is hiding 'insert' behind a function shift.

Looks interesting. Do you order one of each kind and send back all but one?

Also, why is that Windows key so accessible? That is what that diamond shaped icon is, right?

Interestingly, the iPad split (software) keyboard chose "both". For en-US (I don't know if it varies by region), the 6 key is drawn on the right side. However, you can happily tap where it would be with your left index finger and it'll type a 6.

Why not have two "6" keys, one on each half? The user can use whichever one he likes.

Because the keyboard can snap together for non-split use, and then you'd have two 6 keys adjacent to each other.

I was just going to say that. Same with the "b" key on my Microsoft Natural, it's on the wrong side. Why not just have two of them?

Thanks for putting a lot of thought into this! I've used many KBs over the years, and haven't thought about the alignment of the number row at all.

As an example, I just noticed that my Surface "Typepad" KB has a very narrow tilde / back-quote key (~ and `) which biases the "6" to the left. If this weren't the case than it would be more centered, but this is then thrown by the width of the "Backspace" key.

Is numerical input (without the use of a number pad) covered at all in any of the QWERTY vs. Dvorak vs. etc. debates? They have mostly looked at character input to my knowledge, with little regard to numerical input.

Thanks UHK for asking this question?

(personally, I think I'd just adopt to whatever, but "power users" may have a different, justifiable position on this.)

EDIT: As an aside, what width space-bar do most of you think you require? I've just been thinking about KB key-width, and the space-bar shaped elephant-in-the-room loomed it's lengthy head.

Based on the visible wear patterns on my 7 year old laptop, I reckon I'd be more than happy if the space-bar only extended from "V" to "N".

I assume the KB designers have already looked into this, and we've already reached "optimum space-bar", but I'd love to see some research. Anyone know of any studies that have been done that confirm why my space-bar needs to be more than five times larger than the standard letter key?

> EDIT: As an aside, what width space-bar do most of you think you require? I've just been thinking about KB key-width, and the space-bar shaped elephant-in-the-room loomed it's lengthy head.

Well, mine's about a half inch teardrop shape :)

http://alphagrips.com/

I imagine it's just so wide so your thumb doesn't have to move from anywhere on the main keyboard to hit it. It is used incredibly often!

Does anyone else have links to other interesting approaches to keyboards (products or otherwise)?

My favourite approach is the DataHand ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand )

Also the chorded keyboard ideas like in Douglas Englebart's famous 1960s computing demo, where he had a chording keyboard in one hand and a mouse in the other ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard ). The modern variant on that has headed towards wearable mobile use with the Twiddler http://twiddler.tekgear.com/

Also, the Buxton collection includes some interesting keyboard designs (including the two above): http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/bibuxton/buxto...

An introduction to Ergonomic keyboards:

https://h4labs.wordpress.com/2015/07/16/the-model-01-an-heir...

Here are a few dozen of links about keyboards:

http://thespanishsite.com/public_html/org/ergo/keyboards.htm...

Reviews of many: http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_review_gallery.html

http://allthingsergo.com/blog/category/reviews/ergonomic-key...

Very DIY (still have to solder mine together): http://ergodox.org

The Kinesis Pro is excellent and by far the fastest keyboard I've ever typed on, as well as the most ergonomic (no strain for me):

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/

It optimizes the contour of the layout to minimize finger movement distance, and improve comfort. It also moves frequently pressed keys like ctrl, shift, backspace, etc. onto the thumbs which are stronger. Overall I type noticeably faster.

The 3M Ergonomic Mouse is a mouse I use that's very ergonomic as well. No stress or strain for me ever since switching to those with a standing desk, years ago, even despite very intensive computer use.

Here's one that's been under development for a long time. I have two of these on preorder -- I hope I like them :-)

http://shop.keyboard.io/

My daily working keyboard is an Alphagrip.(Just tested at 69wpm vs 120wpm qwerty on plain English.)

http://alphagrips.com/

The rabbit hole is deep https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55099

Http://geekhack.org/ is a pretty good source. The ErgoDox originated there.

I don't think removing the F row is wise or defendable. Personally I use the Keycool 84 which has a really interesting layout: http://i45.tinypic.com/1z3bdkp.jpg

Whether or not you like what the Keycool 84 does on the right hand side with the arrow keys and Home/End etc, it should be fairly obvious that there's no real benefit to removing the F row.

As someone who hits the "b" key with their right hand when typing, I find it encouraging that they're splitting that off to the right side, as the vast majority of "ergonomic" keyboards put it on the left side, as the home row method of typing instruction recommends.

(I learned my non-standard method of touch typing playing MUD's via telnet in the mid-nineties)

The split keyboards themselves feel completely unnatural to me, because I press the middle keys differently, depending on what letters are immediately preceding the key in question. For example, when typing "keyboard", I type 'y' with my right hand, whereas while typing "completely, I type 'y' with my left hand. In both cases, it means that I don't need to stretch my hands as much.

If an ergonomic keyboard does not include duplication of the middle keys, it adds quite a bit of confusion when I reach for a key that isn't there.

Actually 'b' is at a completely wrong position( on a ordinary keyboard ). It is inaccessible for both hand, without moving your wrist which causes strain.

I have globally remapped 'b' to the right of 'l'. It feels much better. The old 'b' key is now unused.

Maybe I misunderstand but how can being forced to move your wrist cause strain? Your wrist moves all the time in day to day activities.

If anything I would think keeping your wrist in the same position too long would cause strain, especially if it's unrelaxed.

Even in piano, if you have to play the same notes many times, you are supposed to move your wrist slightly so you aren't doing the same movement each time to prevent injury.

I almost never touch the 6 on the top row but use the numpad instead, although it seems I use either left or right index finger depending on which hand I pressed the last key with. If I'm typing the shifted version (i.e. the ^ operator), I always use my right index since my left hand moves down to the shift key.

Perhaps for the same reason, I don't use anything other than the standard PC layout; I'm basically memorised where all the keys are, and changing them will greatly confuse me. Split keyboards don't work for me either.

IMHO if you have to consciously think about which finger is being used, you should practice typing more. I didn't really know which finger I used and actually had to slow myself down to figure it out.

Edit: after a bit of experimenting, my fingering pattern seems to be approximately like this: http://i.imgur.com/zpcmHZ9.png

What's most interesting here to me is that people are taught which fingers to type with. I was never explicitly taught how to type, but I usually hit 6 with my left middle finger. I type at 130 WPM on average.

Edit: after some screwing around, I hit every number but 1 with my middle fingers (I hit 1 with my left ring finger).

Do you still type 130wpm if you are typing a lot of numbers? I'd be surprised if you could reach those speeds while typing all number keys but one with a single finger.

No, if I'm typing a lot of numbers I switch to the numpad. If I had to use the number keys along the top, I'd be much slower than 130. Numbers like "130", though, I just noticed that I distribute the keys among several fingers. I'm not sure of the rules my fingers are following in that respect. Examining your own typing habits is fun :)

I love the thought put into this. A few years ago this was exactly what I was looking for, but today I am doing most of my work on my laptop, and even if you plug this in there's a problem, your keymap is lost between the native laptop keyboard and the UHK. To me this says that it's not really a hardware problem, it's something that should be 100% software, and give you an easy way to transfer keymaps from one system to another.

That is, I need a Mac keymap and a Linux keymap, where everything is synced between. Which ironically, is pretty much already possible by customizing the native keyboard layout files.

From my typing class in high school (on a typewriter), we were taught to hit the '6' key with our right index finger.

Ergo keyboards always seem to stick it on the "wrong" side. :)

I was taught the same method, although on a keyboard.

Due to Benford's Law perhaps the 6 key should be located on the right as you're left hand will, on average, type more digits anyway.

To the right of the '5' key, above the '3' key and below the '9' key.

A while ago, I wrote a post about this over at Geekhack, which I’ll copy here https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66322.msg1566004#msg156...

(go to that link if you want to see images inline)

* * *

Edgar Matias wrote (context: Matias’s Ergo Pro keyboard puts the 6 key on the right hand):

> That's true, but it is consistent with the typing textbooks I've seen. It's been a while since I researched this stuff. We can get a quick & dirty estimate using Google... http://www.google.ca/search?q=fingers+used+to+touch+type&tbm...

When I search for “touch typing” in Google images (this query is a bit more effective than the one you suggested, which quickly devolves into irrelevant images after the first page or so), the first several examples are either on Wikipedia or copies of images that originally came from Wikipedia / Wikimedia commons. After that, there seem to be a bunch of examples each way. A sampling of the ones with 6 on the left hand:

http://i.imgur.com/p0dE8wo.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UzgxGmz.jpg http://i.imgur.com/7FFd9pv.jpg http://i.imgur.com/qA8s3X9.jpg http://i.imgur.com/mNE0Fhx.jpg http://i.imgur.com/KarYUjV.jpg http://i.imgur.com/mUY5aNM.jpg http://i.imgur.com/fQx1h3N.jpg http://i.imgur.com/qT0iUO3.jpg http://i.imgur.com/wY33abR.jpg http://i.imgur.com/SL7W4mi.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ccDqf8c.jpg

(Again, there is a similar variety of diagrams that put 6 on the right hand.)

Matias again:

> While there are a few guides that deviate from the standard approach, the trend is pretty clear. Again, I'm not disputing anyone's particular technique (whatever works for you) but there is an established standard. You can choose to follow it or ignore it. I chose to follow it. Microsoft ignored it.

To be as generous as I can: you’re greatly exaggerating how “established” this “standard” is.

On the one hand, the original touch typing book from 1889 does put 6 on the right: http://i.imgur.com/iK8WNJp.png

On the other hand, here’s a book from 1893: http://i.imgur.com/LyqyQ9M.png

As for my personal technique.... The way I type on a QWERTY/ANSI/IBM keyboard – and I would strongly advise anyone else to use a similar fingering – is roughly like this: http://i.imgur.com/oTgR4Kq.png

Typing “Z” with the ring finger, “X” with the middle finger, and “C” with the index finger allows the left wrist to stay straight, with the arm coming toward the keyboard at an angle, and makes it dramatically easier and more comfortable to press all the keys on the left of the bottom row.

But this mainly serves to highlight how terrible the QWERTY/ANSI/IBM layout is. On the upside, it’s ubiquitous. On the downside, almost everything about its design is anachronistic nonsense.

Side note: this is sure a funny method: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8404/8636675817_5398c6aba6.jp...

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